The comments are where the meat and potatoes of this post are. – admin
By Michael
For a few months now I been having doubts, and I don’t know why, I think one of the main things that has really been bothering me is seeing so many orthodox sects, not get along with each other, like Satmar, Chabad, non-Chassidus. And so on.
I always thought we were one family, but when i see so much negativity from one group to another, it really bothers me and makes me upset that sometimes I doubt am I really doing the right thing?
So what do you do as a baal teshuva when for 2 years you were going in right direction and then things happen that creep up and you sort of back slide, but not intentionally?
Thanks
Originally Published 11/27/2007
Steve – Your reply sounds like something I would agree with, I’m just not clearly sure what the specific point is that you are trying to get across in regards to “sincerity” remaining an “issue” for all transgressions and not being a “litmus test”…..
But I would definitely say that of course teshuvah only “exists” in relationship between a person and HKBH. And that… in my own personal experience…authentic teshuvah is almost always extremely hard work and requires sincere humility.
anyway…I hope you have a Good Shabbos!
Mesorah4 ever-the sincerety of teshuvah, on all transgressions, even for someone who has backslid, remains an issue for such a person to confront with HaShem via the means provided by the Torah and Chazal. Sincerety WADR, is not a litmus test, to be applied by a third party.
Steve –
My reference to Yaakov’s dream was of course not to suggest that the Torah was given to angels, but only to make reference to the fact that embedded in the Torah is the concept that it is possible to move closer and farther away for the Source of All Being, HKBH. Naturally, if one moves farther “away” by committing transgressions, only by making sincere teshuvah can one start to “climb one’s ladder” (so to speak) once again.
The Talmud tells us that the Torah was not given to angels, but rather to human beings. Thus, Chazal understood that man can either grow or backslide spiritually, but that even if a person backslides, he or she can always do teshuvah. The Vilna Gaon is quoted by R Chaim Volizhner ZL in Keser Rosh that the study of Torah, more than any other mitzvah, is the best means of rectifying very serious transgressions.
I think HKBH is still ever faithful that the Jewish people can overcome the problem of sinat chinam, and therefore challenges us again and again in regards to this problem.
The Jewish people are still learning how to live as one people made up of different neshamot that each stand in a unique place and relationship to HKBH. This will take a lot of time, a lot of effort and a lot of hard work.
As far as going on a “back slide” or “backwards” . Ya’akov Avinu himself saw the angels going up and down the ladder to sha’mayim. I would argue that for us to connect to HKBH at times involves moving closer to the Source of all and sometimes involves moving away.
It is a process we all human beings (non-Jew and Jew alike) must undergo.
There is nothing so critical for dealing with wrong turns and even G-d forbid U-turns in one’s Yiddishkeit as being surrounded by a strong, committed frum community. The phenomenon that I have in mind, in action, goes by many unpleasant names. They include “using others as a crutch” and “hypocrisy.” In fact, I advise using others as a crutch, and I think there is a lot of support for this in our tradition. Immersing yourself in frum life can keep you on track, and simulating being on track can be so much like being on track for real that, my goodness, you’re back on track. Even looking backwards you can be on track, you know.
And therein the hypocrisy point: Never rule it out. If the alternative to hypocrisy is yi’ush (surrender, abandonment) and the loss of everything, hypocrisy is easily preferable. But warning: This tack does not mix well with stridency or being judgmental.
Have I made myself remotely clear? It’s Monday morning, but let me try to sum it up this way: Our job every morning is to say Modeh Ani, wash up, go to shul (let me use the men’s model here for dynamic rhetoric, okay?) and say what it says in the siddur. Some days we’ll have more kavanah than others for the words we say; sometimes just saying them cause embarrassment over who we really are shlepping ourselves before Hashem that morning.
That is quite an accomplishment, that embarrassment.
Hi Michael: There is an anonymous Orthodox helpline called the Yittie Leibel Helpline, and they make referrals as well as take on-the-spot issues. Of course, they are not a subsitute for therapy, but one can call in periodically to ask for help in addressing a problem. But, like I said, they also give you referrals, and, since I’ve volunteered on that helpline, I know there are a couple therapists on their referral list who are listed as “specializing” in dealing with baalei tshuvah. The phone number is 718-HELP NOW. I hope this is helpful. Let me know if you are successful in finding one.
A freilichin Chanukah!
Hi Ellen,
I think that sounds about right.
I would love to find a frum therapist that I can afford and specializes in bael teshuva’s
Do you know of any in the NYC/Monsey area?
I would imagine there would have to be some, I just don’t know how to go about finding out, I am too embarrassed to ask my own rabbi or people I know. I know it sounds silly. I just don’t want people to know I am having difficult issues.
Thanks
I will point out that torah is, by in large, a system of though with certain base materials and resources; and yet torah is amenable to a number of different approaches, which we often call hashkafot.
there is a halacha somewhere that a person may only quote a rav in defense of a practice if he A shares his general hashkafa (priorities, outlook) and B relies on him for most halachot.
this shows a certain connection between hashkafa and halacha. Yes it is true that there are many different oppinions in halacha, but it should be realized that when one takes a certain hashkafa and looks at the sources in the gemorah, naturaly they will yeild a certain formulation of halacha, that is tailored to the needs of that individual. This is not to say that halacha is a free for all, and generaly hashkafa also comes from torah sources, but those sources are sufficiently diverse to produce multitude of hashkafot that are tailored to the needs of a particular individual in living a torah life.
Hi Michael:
There are many people who come to frumkeit because of depression, unhappy childhoods with dysfunctional family situations, etc. and they find that frumkeit can fill the terrible void created by these situations. Unfortunately, the initial comfort created by the picture of a connected, loving community and philosophy often comes crashing down when the illusion of what we as baalei tshuva invested in turns out to be what it sometimes is, i.e. an illusion. I am a great FOL (friend of Lubovitch), and an admirer of their sincere outreach and efforts to love every Jew. I also was working at a school in Crown Heights at the time of the Rebbe’s “histalkus”, and was at the levaya. Some of what I saw there was plain frightening, including some young women dancing on the steps of 770 with tambourines. I believe this was not simply about a significant portion of the community believing that the Rebbe is Moshiach, but about some unhappy people finding in Chabad having found a therapy for their unresolved issues, and the Rebbe as a parent figure that “replaced” the real, but “less than perfect” (that said tongue-in-cheek) parents. So with the tragic loss of the Rebbe, the entire community fell into chaos, some of it consisting of a number of lost souls who still hadn’t resolved those earlier issues.
Michael, I am not in any way suggesting that your pursuit of frumkeit through Chabad was anything less than pure and sincere. And Torah Judaism, Chabad-style or otherwise, can offer a meaningful life to a person with “unresolved issues”. However, when part of our investment in frumkeit is an unconscious effort to make peace with an unhappy past, and real life sets in, then the resulting disillusionment can appear to be one more bad choice we made, in this case, Torah Judaism. May I humbly suggest that you not throw out the baby with the bath water, and find a frum therapist who specializes in baalei tshuva, so you can hopefully attempt to find some balance between that which was your disappointment with Yiddishkeit, and your disappointment in your loss of the dream of finally feeling whole. If I’m off base here, I apologize for being presumptuous.
Hi Ellen,
To be honest I became more religious through depression. What I mean is I went through some horrible traumatic events when I was a child. And been in and out of therapy and on medicine for a number of years, nothing really worked.
So I decided to do some soul searching, I never believed in Hashem for most of my life becuase I always had the classic question how can Hashem allow these bad things happen to me as a child? I explored other religions and philosophy and at one point got attached to Buddhism, but something was still missing. Eventually I picked up a book by Rabbi Kaplan called Jewish meditation and had no idea, the concept even existed in Judaism. So I decided I really should find out more about Judaism since I realize I know very little, maybe there is something there. That was the start from there I found chabad, and discovered there is so much depth to Judaism that I never existed like I had no idea there was a talmud.
Michael: What made you decide to become frum in the first place? Did you have a rov at the time? Did you participate in any community, or get involved in any shul? I can’t speak for the others on this blog, but for myself, I became frum as a teen in the late sixties when the whole world was turning upside down and frumkeit seemed “safe”. I needed boundaries at a time when there were none. There was a beauty and a closeness within the Orthodox community at the time in my home town (Cleveland). I began yeshiva then in the eleventh grade, and since we were a small town yeshiva, girls from every end of the spectrum and in between were my classmates. And we all managed to get along just fine (most of the time). I, too, was dismayed to find the community become progressively more divided over the years (granted I live in Brooklyn now where it’s worse), and I still struggle with that, as well as with other issues. But for me, I’ve been around long enough to realize that no other truths can adequately replace the Torah. I’ve had to find a comfort level for myself within frumkeit, and at my age, I don’t care as much what the others think of my minhagim. I need to continue learning and pursuing what works for me.
As for separate seating in waiting rooms and elsewhere, when I’m in Rome (or Williamsburg) I do as the Williamsburgers do only because they’d object if I’d move into the other side of the waiting room. But I still drive when going through Williamsburg even though the women there do not, because I don’t offend them if I do. I try to do what I am comfortable with without offending others (and keeping within the boundaries of Halacha).
As others have said, the Tanya is considered an important sefer. But for Lubavitch it is learned almost exclusively (although certainly not entirely).
Ellen L.
Michael,
Delve into Tanya if that is what your neshamah seems to “naturally” be attracted to. It is important, as pointed out by earlier postings, to learn the halacha. Be sure to keep that in mind always. We must become learned in our Torah obligations, and make this part of our regular learning experience. I would suggest a seder of learning that includes different facits of Torah. If Chasidus is what “calls to you”, I would not ignore it. We each must find our own derechim, and even though our own personal backgrounds may have been from a different derech than that which we are attracted to, we must listen to our pintele yid and gain inspiration that spiritually keeps us moving forward. “Keep you eye on the light”!
In fact we should judge movements by their adherents’ general pattern of actions. Actions do speak louder than words. The main thing is not to accept that certain types of actions are typical for members of a group, unless unbiased evidence really supports that belief. Also not to look at certain facets of their lives or at certain individuals while ignoring the big picture.
Too often have I heard or read that we shouldn’t judge Judaism by the Jews! The grain of truth in that is only a grain. Granted that few live perfect Torah lives (yet), we Torah Jews should be proud of our virtues and accomplishments, and emphatically reject our critics’ belief that they are better than us.
We shouldn’t rest on our laurels either, because teshuva applies to all at every stage.
As far as Chassidus, being attracted to it, and their stringencies: I have always been attracted to Chassidus as well. They are passionate and I find myself drawn to them. There is nothing wrong with that as far as I am aware. I think it’s good to learn from and appreciate everybody. As Mark pointed out, their minhagim about separation of sexes is not halacha. They would not say it is. There is nothing wrong with their practice and there is nothing wrong with mixed waiting rooms. My son takes Monsey Trails where they have a mechitza across the bus. Initially, he being a teenager unaccustomed to that practice on a bus, thought it comical, s omething to joke about. He has now come to respect it, albeit wishing it weren’t there no doubt, but has learned to respect it nevertheless because it comes from good motives, and who are we to judge that. As far as judging other religions: Mark has made an important point here as well. We reject other religions because they go against the Torah. We don’t judge them based on people’s actions, at least we shouldn’t. Nor should we judge any group that way. There will always be radicals, they will always be the minority, in any religion, group, culture.
Greg
We primarily judge other religions as incorrect because they go against the Torah, not because of the issues you mentioned. They were rejected long before the crusades or modern day terrorism.
Can I make a small request not to turn this thread into a Comparative Religions discussion. It’s an important discussion but I think there are more on-topic issues to discuss in this thread.
I will tell you that one of our contributors does have a Jews, Judaism and judgment piece in the works.
I’ve heard R’ Wade say this, but why can’t other religions/”theisms” be treated the same way?
Why not “not judge Islam by the Muslim terrorists”?
Why not “not judge Christians by the Crusaders”
sometimes, we’re very hypocritical when we criticize other religions because of its followers while turning a blind eye to ours.
Same goes with Pascal’s wager.
I heard the former pastor and ger tzedek, Rav Asher Wade, say that before he converted he already determined that “You don’t judge Judaism by the Jews, rather by the Torah”.
Good moshol, Menachem. I was thinking the same thing.
Michael,
I agree with Rabbi Scher in that your “backslide” may be necessary and possibly not even such a bad thing. It’s similar to the current stock market situation. The Dow is off quite a bit from its recent high. At this point we’re not sure if this is a “correction” or the beginning of a “Bear” market. Hopefully it’s a correction.
A correction is a necessary and healthy backslide in stock prices. After some rapid growth, it gives investors a chance to take some profits, reasses their portfolios to make sure they’re investing their money in the right areas, and prepare for the next big upswing which will take them to even greater heights.
As long as you’re experiencing a correction you should view it as a similar opportunity. Which may be exactly what you’re doing by reaching out in this forum.
Anything one chooses to study will have detractors somewhere.
The Tanya is a wornderful sefer, but as RHS and R Meir Twerski both have pointed out, there are many similarities between the Nefesh HaChaim and the Tanya in approach, as opposed to their sources. I would highly recommend that anyone overwhelmed or intimidated by the sheer volume of Torah to be learned go thru the SA HaRav on Hilcos Talmud Torah. It sets forth what a Jew should learn in order to fulfill the basic elements of the Mitzvah of Talmud Torah in a very succint manner.
The Tanya encompasses a particular hashkofa — a brilliant, all-encompassing one, but not the only one and, to the extent it is so big, one that does not necessarily leave much air for other hashkofos (this is hardly unusual!). This hashkofa is, by and large, not the one of the Lithuanian yeshivos. And that is one reason it is not learned in “the yeshivos.”
Michael
Regarding Tanya. When I first started out over 20 years ago, Rabbi Lam told me that Rabbi Yitzchak Kirzner z”tl was giving a number of shiurim in Great Neck, LI a modern orthodox community. At the time Rabbi Kirzner was giving three shiurim in a row, Tanya, Derech Hashem and relationships.
The people in Great Neck wanted to learn Tanya, but Rabbi Kirzner, who was a Chassid, taught it as a mussar sefer and briefly explained the Kabbalistic parts. This was with the approval of the extremely learned Modern Orthodox Rabbis running the program. There is nothing wrong with learning it, even though much of the Yeshivish world doesn’t.
In differences of opinion, the key is to really try to understand what points exactly they disagree on.
In your men/women interaction example the Ultra Orthodox (for lack of a better term) recognize the issues that can arise out of these interactions and go to great lengths to prevent them. They also are aiming at high levels of purity. The Torah allows for individuals or communities to add stringencies when deemed necessary by their leaders.
But a stringency by definition is not a halachic requirement and at the beginning stages of growth we should focus on the basic halachic requirements.
Don’t worry about the highest levels at this point, you have a lifetime and you’ll have a better understanding of them as you go on.
Focus on learning Torah, kashrus, Shabbos, davening and the other mitzvos that we are obligated in (Yom Tov, Mezzuzah, etc..). These are the essentials for everybody.
I just want to take the time to thank everyone who has replied with some really good advice.
I really love learning all aspects of Torah, but one aspect I am really drawn to is chassidus / kabbalah, like Tanya.
But from what I understand there are many groups outside of chabad that do not hold Tanya as authentic, and I think there are some that are very anti-kabbalah, that do not believe the Zohar is authentic.
This really confuses me, because if I am learning something that is not accepted by mainstream orthodox, then I just do not know what should I believe anymore.
Unfortunately I have a personality of all or nothing, and I know Judaism is not all or nothing, that is one of my biggest obstacles I need to work on, because I fall in a trap.
I know a lot of our great sages and scholars have disagreed on topics like Rashi and Ramban on many asepcts of chumash. Then it comes to should I believe in one sage over the other because that is what I want to believe or becuase I feel is really correct?
Let me give you an example of something that I found out recently. I had visited a very ultra orthodox community and I had to go to the doctor office and when I walked in there was separate waiting rooms for men and women, and separate reception desk for men and women. I understand having men and women being separate during davening, since that time is suppose to be between you and Hashem. But what I witness is that not extreme?
Why do I bring it up? Because it started to bother me, are they taking it to extreme? are they really correct it should be done that way and if so that means I am sinning so much becuase I see women every single day and interact not for social reasons though?
Does it mean I really need to get to that level? If not, then why is say a more modern orthodox view ok over theirs?
I know it says in the Torah one should not add or take away commandments. Is what this community doing adding?
I did go through a time in my life when I got very turned off, something happened to one of my kids in the yeshiva system, and I was totally devestated. I couldn’t even daven for a year following that, I tried to but I just couldn’t! Boruch Hashem I have a very good friend that I could speak to, her and her husband are true examples of emesdika yidden. Now I realize that there was a master plan in all that happened and I am wiser for it. It is so crucial for Baalei Teshuvah to have some sort of support system, because we don’t have mishpacha.
I would suggest that you incorporate the best aspects of all of the groupings that Mark mentioned and jettison the worst.
I think what Michael might be looking for, and a few people touched upon, is not just encouragement; but really how did any of us cope when we had those periods of doubt, insecurity, confusion? What happened to us and what did we do about it? What answers or actions did we find that really made a difference.
I suspect that the answers are as varied as we are.
I’ve found, speaking for myself, when I’m down about something within, myself I find fault in others outside and around me. If I’ve failed in some way and feel bad about myself, I project it on to others.
This is not to say the others are not sometimes worthy of it. Sometimes they are very worthy of it.
But the world takes on a particularly dull shade of gray, wintery, dreariness — and I see peoples’ shadows and blemishes a lot more and a lot clearer — when I feel I have fallen short of who I am.
Who I am morally. Who I am spiritually. Who I am in terms of life achievements. Who I am as a Jew. As a human thing.
It’s easier to blame others than myself.
Especially when they’re really messing up.
But it still comes back to me, and how I feel about myself.
What’s the solution? Look in the mirror. Various types of “mirrors” include your mentor, your best friend, your personal journal.
We need to talk better. We need to communicate better. We need to share experiences. Ourselves. Our selves.
This can bring a sense of wholeness, which can lead to holiness, which can make us realize that the guy with the beard is also just a guy with his own struggles, his own failures and successes, and the world is on course and proceeding as it should be.
When we are on course the world is on course — even with all its blemishes. There’s sparkle amidst the gray. Or even a beautiful, bright, sun-shining day.
Michael: How do we know which is right? Can they all be correct? I believe they can. And what is right? We each are instructed to find our Rav who can help us reach our own potential. I remember a few years ago when asking a specific shailoh, and getting what I felt was a lenient answer, asking the Rav” Well how do I know that’s what H” wants? How do I know that’s right?” He told me “That’s why I get gray hairs, the responsibility is on me now”. We are told to find a Rav and to listen. It’s hard nowadays for people to do that, but we must. We must ackcnowledge that others know more than us. We have to trust and do as we are advised. If anything, we will be rewarded for that, and there, the responsibility of searching out which group is “right” becomes obsolete. We have to follow in the ways of our fathers. No frum fathers, so our Rebbeim. That’s our mesorah in action.
Squarepeg613: If only I knew all the answers….Following the Mitzvos and doing what we’re supposed to be doing definitely produces better people IF we allow ourselves to truly absorb it, and not just “dress the part”. Some Mitzvos are easier than others, they all have a purpose for us to grow. If we truly attach ourselves to Torah and our leaders, truth becomes clear. We are told in the Torah about who our role models are there, and even they are imperfect. If we were perfect we wouldn’t need the Torah and wouldn’t be here, our job would be finished.
But since we are here, we must always strive for growth and truth and look for the good in others, there is so much of it. I see it everyday. And if I really took the time to notice, I’d probably see it every minute.
Rabbi Wein has a famous line for this…”Don’t judge G-d by the Jewish people!” I am fortunate to have a few close friends I admire, they are very sincere about their Yiddishkiet and don’t involve themselves with machlokes and looking down on other people. It is the yaitzer horah who is constantly whispering in our ears “see, these are the people that are religious, look at what they do, etc.” You must ignore these voices and focus on the good. Which there is so much of, if you look.
Michael
The Torah itself allows for difference in opinion in Minhagim and even in some of the details of halachos.
At a 40,000 foot level, Chasidus stresses Avodah, Yeshivish stresses learning Torah and Modern Orthodox stresses Gemillas Chasadim. All three groups would agree that Torah, Avodah and Gemillas Chasidim are all essential to serving Hashem, but each emphasizes a particular area.
As a BT you don’t have to choose, you can work on all three areas or you can pick a particular path.
At this point it’s essential that you keep on learning and experiencing as much as you can, so you can make informed decisions of what will work for you in your unique path of serving Hashem.
And by ‘one rabbi’ I mean my rabbi. : )
When people get me down, I focus more on Hashem. I also focus on one rabbi and don’t worry about the others. You can go totally nuts doing that.
I’m just saying he should orient himself and not be distracted by what’s going on all around.
Thanks everyone for all the responses. I probably can go into a lot more detail, but one thing that really does confuse me is we all have one Torah correct?
So how is it that certain communities have so many different minhag from another? How do you know who is really correct? Who do you follow? How is it possible everyone is right?
Thanks,
Michael
All I can tell you is, stay the course. Others were in your shoes before, and tney made it, and continue to make it…please don’t give up. Remember, disagreements happen when we strive for a common goal, which is to serve Hashem the way He wants us to. We all have the same goal; some of us just think one road goes there, others think another road will get us there.
Marty
Torah allows for legitimate differences of opinion, especially in Hashkafah. Sometimes those legitimate differences turn into illegitimate expressions of those differences and that might be what you are observing.
The long term answer to that problem is we need to work on ourselves as individuals and as communities.
To me that’s one of the beauties of Torah Judaism, instructions for becoming better Jews coupled with the recognition that we have to closely look at both our strengths and weaknesses to become the better Jews that the Torah prescribes.
Two quick ideas:
1) Have a daily study session of the self-improvement seforim in Chassidus or Mussar. Much of the English based Torah available on the parsha is focused on this.
2) Find yourself a group of people who are working on becoming Better Jews. Beyond BT is a good place for that online, but you should try to find a group/place offline also.
Ideally, we’d all be perfect and be a perfect magnet toward Judaism for seekers like Michael. While we’re not perfect, Michael should make the effort to see our many good points.
Sarah, you wrote, “it’s not ideal to judge a life of Torah and Mitzvos by people’s actions.” What *would* be the ideal way to judge a life of Torah and Mitzvot? I am asking this question very sincerely. If Torah observance produces better people, then that would seem to be a persuasive argument in favor of the Truth of Torah. But if it doesn’t produce better people overall (and I haven’t yet judged whether it does or doesn’t), then what would make us think it contains Truth?
Hi Michael: Believe me, there are many more people and groups getting along beautifully, than not. We are one family. You must know though, that in any family, there will always be disagreements. How we handle them is another story. We can respectfully agree to disagree or not.
Unfortunately people are not perfect. We all have our tests, but this issue reminds me once again, how careful we have to be about what we project because: People are watching. It may be our kids, our neighbors, our parents, our colleagues, and of course H†is always watching. But H†knows we are imperfect, other people may be quick to judge.
Michael, people choose to live a frum life because the Torah is perfect and so is its Creator. It is we who are not and that is why we are here. Although it’s not ideal to judge a life of Torah and Mitzvos by people’s actions, if you must, There are MANY more positive role models to observe. Find them, cling to them, and although even they are not perfect, they will be the first to tell you and continue to strive. It’s contagious either way, so better to be among the cream of the crop spiritually. Good luck to you.
I think it is common to become disillusioned or unmotivated with commitments that we believe in. My own experience (in another context) is that when I feel like quitting something I believe in, opportunities come to re-commit myself. Things seem to happen to give me a lift and get me back into what I wanted to be doing. So maybe you just need to ride this out and be open to seeing events or opportunities that make you feel, “yes, *this* is why I want to be religious.”
Observant Judaism is so broad. There are so many choices of what to immerse yourself in. Perhaps it’s time for a change.
Shalom Michael!
Well, this won’t be a popular response, but some ‘backsliding’ may be necessary. Rav Kook had a formulation of ‘descent for the sake or ascent’. Sometimes the renewed momentum we need comes from the experience of falling. That isn’t to say that one should seek to backslide; but sometimes it is part of the process for a particular individual.
Okay, having said that, backsliding is scary, worrisome, and sometimes worse, right? So my first question is: who are you sharing your challenge with? This isn’t, after all, a short question with a quick answer. It is part of the struggle of growth. Was it Nietsche who said what doesn’t kill me strengthens me? The internet, and this forum in particular, is great, but you need a friend to lean on at times like this. If you haven’t yet, take a sympathetic friend into your confidence. A rav may be useful, but a steady friend is essential.
Hang in there!
And Ron, what if Michael is down near the Antarctic, and should be facing North? :-)
Get up tomorrow morning and face the east again.