One of the reasons we started Beyond BT is because we felt that BTs needed more support and that we can provide some through this forum.
It has been a limited success given the limitations of an online community/forum and the limited available resources, but perhaps we can use today’s question to brainstorm how we can provide more support for BTs.
Here some common issues below and their obstacles.
Please suggest how perhaps we can overcome any of the mentioned obstacles.
Providing Classes of All Types for BTs.
Obstacles: Attendance is usually sparse.
Getting Mentors for BTs.
Obstacles: Good willing mentors are hard to find. There is no mechanism for BTs to request mentors. BTs are hesitant to request mentors.
Getting Rebbeim for BTs
Obstacles: Good BT-oriented Rebbeim are hard to find. Rebbeim are usually paid for their time through their shuls and there is no other normative structure to pay good Rebbeim for their time.
Providing Live Support Meetings for BTs
Obstacles: It does not seem that BTs want to get together to discuss their issues.
As to Bechira / Emuna….
I think that the beliefs mentioned here vis a vis bechira proof and logic are incorrect. HKB’H created a world and he created our minds. He surely intended for us to reason with our minds. Angels (possibly) don’t have a choice of what to think or do – we humans do. Therefore if, as has been suggested, the world must allow for one to logically opt for a ‘yes G-d / no G-d’ in the interests of bechiro, then HKB’H should have no issue with anyone who gets to the next world having believed in ‘No G-d’ Chas VSholom. That is obviously not the case. Put slightly differently (and I am aware this may not be a perfect example but it should suffice to make the argument); Presumably you agree that HKB’H would not make the world in a manner where all logical proof led one to the inescapable fact that there was CHVSH no G-d. For doing so would mean there was nothing wrong with a person ending up with that conclusion.
So too, if both options were a possibility and regardless of how much time, effort and thought a person expended, there would be no way for them to definitely reach the conclusion that there IS a G-d, for it were inconclusive – it would be just as problematic – HKB’H could not apportion blame to someone for having not recognised Him under those cicumtances.
Therefore we have to say that it MUST be possible to determine the truth – that HKB’H is the creator and the Torah is true.
If so then where is the bechira? The answer to that – to the best of my understanding – is in HKB’H’s allowance of the human intellect to let itself be led down various routes. Our brains are constantly flooded with ideas and cultures that affect the way we perceive things. Just as an example, take the ‘suing’ or the ‘politically correct’ cultures. When we first encountered these things most people instinctively felt such practices were ridiculous or overblown. But gradually, as time goes by, we get used to the idea and no longer perceive it as negatively. This is precisely what happens with other ideologies. R Avigdor Miller refers to the world as a place of darkness (purposefully created so) in which the truth surrounds us, but we are blinded to it by the fog. First lets see this in a physical sense. We have millions of bacteria swarming around us but we don’t see them without the aid of a microscope. There are moving images and voices passing all around us which we don’t see without the aid of equipment to receive it. These things are there, regardless of our inabiity to see them. Yet if you tried telling someone from 1,000 yeara ago about the bacteria or sound waves or gases floating right by them – they would think you were insane. Similiarly, the truth of the universe is all around us. But society and secular education has ‘taught us’ so much that we cannot see it staring us in the face.
Any sane-minded, truthful person, if walking through a desert and coming across an old IBM typewriter would not for a second entertain the notion that through many years of wind and sand etc. this had just formed. And anyone studying the complexity and purposefulness of the world would know just as surely that it could not just ‘happen’. However, bechira neccesitates a ‘fog’ of cloudy discussions and theories and ideas to be presented – sometimes very capably. This fog is what sucks people’s clear-mindedness into confusion and falsehood. It doe not mean that the lies are provable or the truth non-prvable. Rather it allows for the mind to be warped to a positon where it no longer can see or recognise othe truth.
Its worth noting is how throughout time there has always been something or other casting aspersion on the concept of a world created by HKB’H. There were idol worshippers since very early on. Even after Avrohom was thrown into the fire and openly and miraculously saved by Hashem, the evil king Nimrod just went on and threw Nachor in for his belief in Hashem. After idolatry passed there were new confusions thrown in to the mixture to ensure that bechira was available. Mythology, astrology, the Aristotelian system, religious coercion, Biblical Critiscism, Evolution and Materialism. Amongst the Jews there were the Hellenists, Sadducees, Karaism, Shabsai Tzvi, Reform, Haskala, assimilation, Conservatism etc. These were all rigorously upheld as the unquestionable truth yet now we look back at the generations so firmly convinced that the sticks and stones they themselves fashioned were gods and we marvel at the Greeks – generally so worldy, cultured and advanced – yet childishly pursuing their mythology and the nature and misdeeds of their numerous gods. So too will society one day look back with amazement at the childishness and irresponsibilty of a generation, so advanced yet able to conjure up a fairy tale of the development of mankind from the algae.
Emuna in this matter is difficult to self-learn because our minds are already filled with untruths that are pervasive in society. Bear in mind that many theories once formulated are immediately taken on board and accepted en-masse – even whilst still awaiting proof. For many years these matters can be taught in schools and universally accepted in secular society until fatal flaws are discovered at which point an alternate theory is brought in which then takes over as ‘accepted fact’. Accordingly, society is often under the misconception that certain theories are factual yet, when proven erroneous, these theories do not get untaught. The same schools / universities continue teaching the ‘replacement theories’ with little regard for the cautiousness that, in all rights they should adopt when seeing their previous ‘accepted truths’ turn meaningless. This constitutes a single-minded disdain for the actual truth. The only constant in their teachings is the antagonism to creation. I believe this single-mindedness to blocking their minds and reason to seeing their own behavious is the personification of ‘bechira’. It is not rational or a result of unbiased reasoning. Rather it is the result of following principles and theories that stem from an agenda-driven basis or from a mindset that has been tainted by the norms of accepted culture.
Yet because we have all been tainted with secular concepts, we cannot build our emuna on our own. It requires investigation through the truths of Chazal with the attitude from ones self to be intellectually honest and as clear minded as possible.
Personally, I find the following steps a great boost to opening / building oneself up to Emuna.
1. Admitting that ones mind is, at least partially, susceptible to social norms and beliefs.
2. Following from that is the realisation that social norms and beliefs that have (partly) shaped us are themselves the result of previous norms and beliefs which have just been developed further.
3. Realising / acknowledging that we are human and our instincts often govern our intellect convincing us to believe matters that would suit our instincts. For example, liberalism in matters of morality. We did not become more accepting of matters because, on a intellectual basis, we felt it was the truth – rather instinct led us to the belief that it was ok or even good. This step is an important one and it requires truthfulness.
4. Once we reach this point it becomes clear that much of our society’s customs and acceptances are based on the falsehood of our desires aving convinced us what’s right and wrong. Therefore we can be open to the realisation that right and wrong cannot simply be based on ‘what we want to do’, there must be a definite right and wrong. Chazal with their unwavering commitment to the unchanging values of Torah are clearly the paradigm of what is the core right and wrong.
Ideally, these steps should come after one has already accepted the basic premise of HKB’H in the world. However, even if not, this set of steps can help guide you in the primary question of ‘Is there a G-d’. For whilst the ample proof of a G-d created world is a constant unchanged position which has survived the thousand of years of mans ‘instinct-driven theories’, the opposing theories (currently evolution?) is merely the new stage in which mankinds inner desires seek to rationalise matters in whichever way would make it work best for its instincts. Realising this puts matters into context enabling one to realise the fallacy or ‘wishful thinking’ behind it.
I must finish by saying that if anything I said here makes sense, it is due entirely to R Avigdor Miller’s books and tapes. However if I have misrepresented anything or put it unclearly, that is only due to my lack of understanding or communication skills. I would very strongly suggest that you read his book ‘Rejoice O Youth’ as I belive it will answer your questions far better than my attempts.
Newby,
You have said many things in these last few posts however the points that you use to prop up your premise are flawed or incorrect.
R’ Miller did not discount Josephus so as to rewrite history. To the contrary, he cites him frequently as proof. However he cautioned that one must remember that Josephus, although a Jew, was subservient to the Roman rulers. He points out that despite Josephus’ knowledge of the Sages of that time, he barely mentions them, spending his time talking about the politicians and soldiers. So one does not get a true picture of Judaism at the time from reading Josephus. R Avigdor writes ‘It is not for me to blame Josephus…it is possible the gentile copyists altered the original copies’. An example of gross inaccuracy is where Josephus does not mention R Yochana Ben Zakai who prophesied to Vespassian (Gittin 56a) rather relating that he himself (Josephus)prophesied to Vespassian… .
You appear to have misunderstood my comment re Avrohom Avinu. My point was that Avraham’s emuna was entirely self taught and that was the crucial factor that singled him out to be Avraham Avinu. Likewise we should not presume that emuna is unneccesary – it is our duty to constantly increase our levels of emuna. More pointedly – it is certainly something that we CAN build. Perhaps not to the level that Avrohom did – whereby after years of refining his emuna, Hashem, appeared to him. But it is clear that emuna is not just something you ‘have or dont have’. That being said, Avraham was able to do so of his own accord – that may not be ppossible at this stage as I will hopefully explain in my next post below.
Regarding Matan Torah and the Eigel. The deeper significance of this act is a lengthy subject. For starters however, see Masechta Avoida Zora 4b which discusses that the Yidden would never have committed this sin on their own and it was part of a Divine plan for them to do so – in order to pave the way for Baalei Tshuva forevermore. Obviously this subject needs a lot of understanding – but please realise that our current understanding of this matter is limited and it therefore incorrect to quote it in support of your premise.
You write that R Hutner wavered from left to right ‘and I think R Miller as well’. Whilst I am not as familiar with R Hutner and therefore cannot comment, this would certainly appear untrue regarding R Miller. Equally incorrect is your assumption that his derech was nonconformant with the right. Whilst all Gedolim may have different views one issues from time to time, I don’t believe his derech was a break away from the right at any time. I am also wary of your method of casting aspersions on R Hutner / R Miller’s Hashkofos by their various leanings. I don’t think their views on emuna or hashkofo suddenly flip-flopped at any time just because their views on hanhoga changed / developed.
A disturbing develpoment is where you suddenly move away from your hitherto position of keeping the simple emuna and studying gemora deeply, to rejecting the notion of being able to develop even that simple emuna and worse still, positing that HKB’H can no more be proven than disproven, Chas VSholm. You also admit to not be speaking from experience – i.e. are not a BT as such, yet claim to know that most BT ‘realise they have been duped’. Its one thing to suggest that Kiruv organisations don’t succeed in integrating BT but your wording actually implies that BT have actually been fooled into something that is incorrect (which I am hoping is not your correct intention).
One last point in relation to your posts. You emphasise the study of Gemora negating all else. You stress the neccesity of learning Gemora properly. Yet you also denigrate the examples of great Gedolim. When an accepted Godol says something that differs to your opinion, you ‘don’t approve’ of what he has said. Surely you are aware that the very basic foundation of Torah learning is humility to Gedolim both current and past. Moishe Kibel Torah MiSinai Umesoro LYehoshua etc. The chain of Torah is the ONLY way and one who does not respect the Gedolim cannot truly succeed in achieving the objective of Torah.
I do not mean this post in a negative way. I am sure you are trying to give over a point which you feel is truthful, but for that same reason I had to respond to your points.
Shira,
Rabbi Shimshon Dovid Pincus explains in the Gates of Emunah that there are two components of Emunah.
1) The first is an awareness that there is a G-d. Any logical mind can look at our world and come to the conclusion that there is a Creator. Existence of G-d is not arrived at through proof but through your human mind determining this truth.
2) After you come to this awareness the second component is deepening your Emunah/connection to G-d through learning Torah and doing Mitzvos.
Emunah is a process for each individual and you must start by clarifying that it’s not a toss up of G-d yes or G-d no. The evidence of G-d is much stronger than the evidence of no G-d. But that’s for you to clarify by reading books, thinking and talking to people who have real experience and understanding in these matters.
If you want you can email me at beyondbt@gmail.com and I’ll try to arrange a phone chavrusa to help you work through these issues.
he answer is youre right, I have already written if it was convincing there would be no ‘bechiro’. Why choose Torah etc. Its because we are Jewish and dont have a choice. Inspiration, logic etc. Well G-d offered it to the other nations and they all found something they couldnt cope with. The answer again seems to be one cannot be a ‘moral’ person without it. You can disagree. Unlike other religions we dont want everyone to be Jewish, mainly i think because it would be too hard for them. You have arisen at the truth its because it ‘felt good’, that would be the only truthful reason.
Most of the kiruv companies are not to the MO and it is to them I was referring.
I would also say it has to ‘grow’ on you once you make the choice.
You wrote before that you dont feel the craziness you felt at the beginning.
I think we agree on most things. Only you had to go ‘through’ it to find out.
I dont know what the ‘men’ teach the girls in these kiruv places but I doubt if it has much to do with orthodox Jewish religion.
I think the idea of integrating with FFB’s, and your kids being able to call themselves FFB is more of an issue if you are trying to integrate into Chareidi community. I don’t see any marked difference between long-term observant BT’s and FFB modern orthodox… in terms of acceptability, marriageability, etc.
So, what is spiritual development? What is simple emunah? I’ve yet to meet someone who says they just ‘chose’ emunah. I’ve been asking people about their emunah, an informal survey for myself, and the answers I get are about personal spiritual experiences that were proof of God for them, or of it ‘making sense’ (of course, negating all the parts that make absolutely no sense to us). No one has ever answered to me, “there wasn’t any convincing argument pro or con that couldn’t be refuted, so I concluded it was a simple choice and I chose pro-God, because it felt good”
And if its a simple choice, then why choose God? Why choose Torah? What is Emunah at all, if its just flipping a switch in your mind? Shouldn’t there be some inspiration, or logic, or something convincing involved? How can someone make the choice for Emunah based on nothing?
We are really discussing two distinct subjects. I have already said that there is no real proof either way. So if you are looking for it you wont find it. As you yourself say kiruv is based on proving it and you say you were not convinced. Neither am I. So its really a matter of choice. You really have said it all, and unlike me are speaking from experience. I dont think you are alone either. Most BTs after a time realise they have been duped. R Hutner and Miller have been mentioned as examples of Hashkofo. R Hutner did waver from left to right and litvish to chasidish. I think R Miller as well. Not the best example of Hashkofo. Also they did not conform to either the left or the right and went their own derech. I imagine that all BT’s want to integrate with FFBs. At least their children should be called FFB. This is not happening. At a shiduch an FFB will insist that the parents are also not BT. This is a terrible thing. And i blame the kiruv companies for this. They are making sure that the BTs stand out.
I have not seen the mishpacha article, but I doubt its hashkofo these boys are missing. That is a different subject really. You write that these boys are struggling to learn gemoro, that is more like the problem.
About learning gemoro I can only repeat what I have already said. No it wont bring you to emuna. That is not the purpose of it. But it will bring you to spiritual development.
I may add having been to university, that if yeshivot were run on similar lines there would be less problems.
Ok, I think I finally understand a portion of what newby is trying to say. He is mixing up ‘developing emunah’ with ‘proving God exists first and then I’ll have emunah’… which is a great point, since so much BT oriented literature is aimed at proving God exists, in myriad ways/logics, but a quick google search of most of those big names will take you to counter-arguments that seem just as logical to me. So, in my quest, I’ve had to bypass kiruv organizations, and decide that there is no proof of God that can’t be counter-argued, and vice-versa. Now I’m stuck on where to go from there. I could be Agnostic, I suppose. I’m trying to figure out how to feel the kind of Emunah that newby is talking about. Because I don’t feel the awe/inspiration/crazyness that BTs feel at the beginning, having gone through that once already.
So, newby… how does one get this simple emunah you speak of? Just from learning gemara? I’ve begun to think that it’s more of a pyschological rather than spiritual phenomenom, because the longer you surround yourself with something, the more that thing becomes more ‘normal’ to you and comfortable. For example, the more time I spend around frum people, the more ‘real’ the story of creation seems. The more time I spend around frum women, the more I notice how untznius women dress. But I think its just social conditioning, or something psychological affecting me, not spiritual development as I used to think. Someone mentioned that Buber wrote about this.
This cover story of this week’s Mishpacha magazine discusses the topic of youth from frum families who are externally frum but are empty inside. This leads them to eventually transgress the mitzvos. Many of the individuals seeking to address the issue are emphasizing hashkafa. Many if not most of these boys are learning gemorah and have been doing so their whole lives (the article is addressing boys from FFB families). So, it seems that in the eyes of many, FFBs and BTs need hashkafa in addition to gemorah. This is especially true when one is struggling with or has difficulty and is judged by his ability to learn gemorah. Of course, that person needs to continue to learn gemorah but it is not the be all, end all.
I am not familiar with R Miller’s books. I once read one where he writes against Josephus and I dont approve of rewriting history.
We are not Avrohom ovinu and even he couldnt ‘convert’ everyone. I believe that there is no way for building emunah. I am not into this but I am sure the non believers can refute any evidence you or R Miller can provide. If that wouldnt be the case there would be no ‘bechira’.
The idea of matan Torah where hashem himself had to come to prove himself and even after that, they still made the golden calf shows that emuna is no simple matter.
About learning agadta, it is better not to learn it than to get the wrong ideas.
I can only reiterate again, one should forget about this hashkofo notion, keep to emuna pshuta, and instead delve into learning about the mitsvot.
Newby, ‘Emunah Pshuta’ is ingrained in FFB’s from that ‘B’. It is unreasonable to expect BT to simply have it from one day to the next. R Avigdor Miller has books dedicated to the purpose of enabling one to prove the existence of HKB’H and the kindliness of his actions / methods.
Obviously, this does not mean we can question every event that happens – but as equally obvious is the fact that it is our job to bolster and fortify our emunah through trying to get an understanding of HKB’H and His ways (R Avigdor has a very interesting take on the Holocaust question mentioned earlier – in line with Chasdei Hashem).
Avrohom Ovinu was the first to ‘find Hashem’ and he did this through logically surveying the world. I do not know if he got his children to ‘walk through the same process’ as he did or whether he gave over the yesoidois to them outright and let them build from there with Emunoh but either way, in the event of a person not being in the situation where they have ingrained within them the Emunoh Peshuto, surely it would be correct to build that Emunoh properly.
With regards to Aggadata gemoroh – the same R Avigdor Miller bemoans the fact that many Rebbe’s teaching gemoroh skip out these Aggadata gemoroh’s to go to the more lomdishe stuff…
I am not sure if my posts have at all been read. Perhaps I should reiterate because the replies have nothing to with what I wrote. My main point was that one has to have an understanding of how to learn gemoro. To have what is called a ‘gemoro kop’. One can have learned the whole daf yomi and still not have started without it. The proof if you have it, I have already mentioned. I also stated that that was the first thing to obtain. Without it all gemoro and agadta and hashkofo is meaningless. The kiruv companies dont realise that and that is where we differ.
I am quite aware that the Satmar rebbe blamed the holocaust on the Zionists. The inquisition was blamed on the rich Jewish men having children from maidservants who afterwards became monks and killed them. The recent fire in Wiznits where sefer torahs were burnt because they started using elecricity which was banned by the chazon ish. I could go on. That was not my point.
My point is that BT’s are taught hashkofo on how G-d runs the world. This is wrong. BT’s are no different to FFB’s and should be taught gemoro the same as them.
The question about belief. The answer is that one has to trust our great Jewish leaders. They either knew the answers or managed without it. We can also manage without knowing. One drives a car must one know how it works? Our minds should not be troubled about beliefs at all. Instead we should learn about mitzvot, and how to keep them.
Newby, I’m not sure how much Gemora you’ve actually learned, but when you do get through some more you’ll see that the Gemora is loaded with hashkofa in the form of agadata. The agadata is mixed in with the halacha discussion because the Amoraim who compiled the Gemora thought it was very important that Jews be exposed to it.
Sometimes agadata is difficult, but thankfully there have been Rishonim, Achronim and Gedolim in the post-Achron period who have made it more accessible to a greater majority of Jews.
Both the halacha and the agadata/hashkofa portions of Torah are very important and anybody who is teaching you otherwise is mistaken.
Newby-let me try to post some observations and responses to your 3:58 post:
1)Understanding how God runs the world and the existence and/or persistence of evil therein is an issue that even Moshe Rabbeinu never fully comprehended. WADR, there are many hashkafic approaches ranging from RYBS to R Hutner ,R Avigdor Miller and the Satmar Rav on theodicy and the Holocaust, which appeal to a wide variety of Torah observant Jews precisely because the complexity of the issue leads to many different answers.
2)I suspect that as Mark Frankel pointed out , that the degree of acceptance of BTs depends on where a BT and his and her family reside.
thanks for your post. Easy no possible yes. You are right they cannot turn to anyone. For the simple reason what I have quoted, that it is impossible to know all the answers. I am not sure what you mean ‘reach belief’. How many stages are there and what are they?
Newby, in the yeshivot that you are discussing… what happens if one of the students, who ‘knows’ that they just have “to have belief and not ask them” looses their sense of belief? Who do they turn to? Can they turn to anyone? Or is there a social stigma of those kinds of questioning (that is what I’m reading from your words)? What happens to that person, over time? Do they go OTD? Or live an externally frum life and not internally?
Are you BT? Do you have any idea how difficult it is to just change one’s beliefs full-reverse? Even if someone decides they believe in God, or revelation at Sinai, there is a slew of other pieces that need to fall into place in order to reach belief as you know it.
Could you, in a heartbeat, in a moment, just take on the beliefs of modern culture, and walk into the middle of New York City life and act like a native New Yorker? Would you know how to get around, how to interact, what is the right way the act? What to eat? What food-stands to avoid? What is okay to ask your university teachers and what is taboo? Do that all at once, over, perhaps 1 week past the point of your revelation of the truth of science (or whatever), and see how well you fare. See how your sense of self, your mental health, your social circle, day-to-day life fare.
Can you really think its that easy? Or even possible?
I find this post very important therefore I would like to say more about it.
The impression is that BT’s are not accepted, rabbis dont want to know, and I can add that children have a hard time being accepted in schools. One may think that this is because they are BT’s. I think there are other reasons, following on from what I have written. What kind of questions does a BT ask a rabbi. Either as I have already written how to be exempt from certain mitsvot or reasons for G-d way of running the world. Why catastrophes happen. Or in his personal life why G-d does this or that to him/her. The parents discuss this and therefore the children end up asking their teachers these kind of questions. In a regular yeshivo these questions are never even discussed, everyone knows that one has to have belief and not ask them. These kiruv hashkofo yeshivot have created a schism, and have stopped BT’s becoming part of the mainstream FFB Jewish people. They have a lot to answer for. I would say close them all down. I challenge any of these hashkofo ‘rabbis’ to have an answer for everything. No one has yet come up with why the holocaust happened. It is wrong to delve into these matters. Our job in life is to keep the mitsvot, and learn as much as we are able about them. That will increase our ‘spirituality’ not by knowing how the world is run.
This is an interesting thread, since I have the same problems in Haifa. I made aliyah to Israel from New York 20 years ago knowing no Hebrew and no Judaism after having been “Jewishly emasculated†by the American Reform Movement. I am nearly 50 years old and about 2 years ago, I started to become interested in learning Judaism and increasing my observance although my wife and 2 kids are “chilloni†(actually more Masorati). My wife is slowly following but I refuse to “leave her in the dust†even though it is hard for her.
I work in high tech from 8AM-7PM daily after which, I try to learn a few nights a week and on Friday/Shabbat. My biggest frustration is that there is no real learning framework for Jews in “Spiritual Diapers†in Haifa (and maybe in all of Israel) that work full-time. One famous Haifa rabbi paired me with one of his hesder yeshiva students. His student just got semikha a month ago (26 years old), and we study one hour at 7 PM on Sundays and Mondays (Rambam Mishna Torah) at the yeshiva. However, I need a rabbi to be my spiritual mentor… to guide me weekly and literally build me a program of study tailored to my lifestyle. Moreover, he needs to be reasonably available to me when I need help. Most of the rabbis are way too busy for such a task. In short, I literally hired a personal rabbi “coach†that I pay for coaching me in my spiritual path. I travel from Haifa to Jerusalem twice a month on Friday mornings to meet him. Bâ€H I have the financial means, but for people who don’t…. even in Israel, it is tough to find mentors to help set the correct, personalized framework of study.
[I always contend that for the long term survival of Israel, we need a massive “Jewish revolution†where non religious Israelis can fill in their gaps in Jewish learning resulting from secular Zionist indoctrination. Ironically, many chillonim in Israel are starting to show interest in minor and partial mitzvot observance and there is no infrastructure to help. However, these last few statements are a whole discussion in itself :-) ]
One shiur of one blatt a gemoro a week if I understood correctly. It this shiur is for only an hour then it is similar to a daf yomi shiur. I can only repeat and further emphasize that one has to get the correct ‘mindset’ for learning before one ventures further to hashkofo seforim. Yes we dont learn all the Rambam’s seforim only the ‘yad’. I was once in Israel and happened to be alone in a small shul at night. Two boys of about 20 walked in and started learning in English a kodshim gemoro. I was very impressed with the way they learnt and started speaking to them. They told me they were from Chicago and had come specially to R David’s Brisk Yeshivo. I asked them if they had already learnt everything else and was there nowhere in the US. They answered that they came to learn how to learn and for that they had to come to this yeshivo and since they learnt kodshim they had to join although they had not learnt yet everything else. The point of my story and my posts, is that most people have not learnt how to learn gemoro. This requires mind training. The test can be, how often are you capable of finding a maharsha’ question.
I am not sure what JR says. I have not discussed the idea of making yourself a rav.
About it being my opinion. I have continually stressed that this is the practice in normal yeshivot which R Dessler himself founded.
And it it wrong for BT yeshivot to diverge from it.
Newby, I was very much influenced by Rav Avigdor Miller, zatzal. My husband and I were members of his kehillah in Brooklyn for ten years, and we absorbed a great deal of his Hashkofo. As well as being a Godol with Daas Torah, Rav Miller also had tons of practical common sense. People all the time asked him all kinds of questions, ranging from evolution to the Holocaust to chinuch to global warming (which he said was “an invention of the liberals,” even before the emails about data fixing came out).
To Rav Avigdor Miller, zatzal, the mitzvah of learning Torah meant Gemara for men and practical halachah le-ma’aseh for women. Rav Miller gave more than a dozen Gemara classes for men each week, each on a different Masechta. During shivah for his brother, Rav Miller continued to teach his Gemara classes, although mourners don’t learn, because it affected the Torah learning of others.
Rav Miller zatzal was widely known for his Hashkofo books, starting with Rejoice O Youth! and continuing with Sing Ye Righteous and other works. He also held the famous Thursday night lecture series, which eventually over 32 years resulted in more than one thousand lectures, most of which were preserved on audio tapes (now transferred to other formats) and widely available at Judaica stores around the world. Rav Miller even had fans among the Melbourne, Australia frum community, who had never met him in person but had come to admire him through his books and tapes.
The point of my comment, Newby, is to emphasize the importance of “making yourself
a Rav,” as Pirkei Avos tells us. You are sharing with us your opinion on various issues, but with all due respect, without sources it’s just your own opinion.
The Rambam is mentioned by Newby in # 14, with the statement that the Guide for the Perplexed was among books that were banned or shunned. In # 17 Newby cites the Rambam for support of parts of his (Newby’s) thesis that an approach towards understanding Mitzvot leads to kafirah (which I understand as denial of G-d’ absolute commandments to us to follow all of the Torah). Shouldn’t we look at the whole of the Rambam’s works and his tremendous contribution to the way we live 1000 years after he lived?
Jewish men “must” study Gemara, and there are many who say that women “may” or “should” learn it. However, the amount is not absolute. The extremes range from the short passage recited in the morning prayers to full-time learning of nothing but Gemara. I prepare for, and attend, a weekly shiur where we generally learn up to a daf/blatt (one page, both sides). This enables me to learn Gemara at a pace where I have some idea of what’s going on, while allowing time for other important Torah study and Torah action pursuits.
Newby also discusses the use of Rav Dessler’s work by kiruv professionals. While Rav Dessler may not have written specifically for BT’s, his works are, in the judgment of professionals, a good fit for us. Why not use them? Further, while Rav Dessler’s Gateshead Yeshivah emphasized Gemara, it was not a BT Yeshivah. Even if BT’s were in attendance, most BT’s of that time had a much stronger background than most BT’s of today.
Newby-I agree with Mark Frankel’s assessment of the integration of BTs into the various Torah communities that he mentioned in his post. The keys are finding friends for yourself and family, mentors and a rav . IMO, everything else really is secondary.
Newby, Can you please tell us how long you’ve been a BT and how long you have learned in Yeshiva. It would help us put your comments in perspective.
I shall reply to that in detail. You correctly state what is written in the mishna but which is not kept today. The mishna says 5 years old till ten. A child is not capable of learning Dessler. What he has to do till fifteen is really learn everything but without understanding it. Why the talmud is fifteen and not thirteen i dont know since one can understand already at 13 but not before.
Now to women. The gemoro says women should not learn Torah. The reason is because in the olden times only the mishna and gemoro were written. There was no shulchan oruch. So one had to learn the halacha from the gemoro, women were found to be incapable of this because they would always go ‘lkula’. Today when men also cannot learn the halacha from the gemoro and need a shulchan aruch things are different.
Perhaps i am not being clear. To be Jewish one also has to have a Jewish ‘mindset’. Most people even having passed through yeshivot even FFB are not capable of learning gemoro. The idea of gemoro is basically mind training, talmudic reasoning. How to think in a certain way. Once one has a Jewish ‘mind’ then one can learn other things as well even Dessler.
From Pirkei Avos:
“At five years old a person should study the Scriptures, at ten years for the Mishnah, at thirteen for the commandments, at fifteen for the Talmud.”
Newby, are you proposing to leave out the steps that are the prerequisites for Gemara?
I cannot answer for women. I do not know. But yes for men there is only one way. Or perhaps let us say one has to start off with gemoro.
newby, where are you speaking from? I don’t think that what you are defining as ‘real’ judaism is something all frum jews would agree with. Since women don’t learn gemara as often as men, are you saying a woman’s only spiritual/religious obligation is to just ‘believe’? Is it of little value for men to learn Parsha, Chumash, Navi, etc? Spirituality is only to be found in Gemara? How can there be just one legitimate way to learn to grow spiritually? Doesn’t everyone learn, and grow, differently according their nature?
With all due respect to Rav Dessler, he did open a kollel in Gateshead during wartime to learn gemoro. He was later mashgiach in ponovezh. But he also held I am sure that gemoro is the main Torah. He did try to understand things which how should I put it are better left not understood. This is not a critism of him but of those of his talmidim mainly in the kiruv industry who print his works. This has given the impression that everything can be understood which is far from true. This has been a fore runner of many other books today which are far off the derech. It is not our ‘job’ to understand everything in hashkofo and the rambam writes that this will eventually lead to kefiro. Our job is to believe and to to learn gemoro. As I have already written regular yeshivot do not learn this.
Where would I be without Rav Dessler ?
Hashkafah provides a useful conceptual framework to motivate and direct one’s Torah study. No either-or here.
I would like to make another point. Learning to grow spiritually through Torah. In the kiruv industry they learn a lot of hashkofo books. And I imagine that is what you meant by growing spiritually by Torah. This is not the case. I am unable to explain why but the fact is that in a regular yeshivo one does not learn them. One learns gemoro about an ox goring another one and later on in daf yomi. Learning Jewish legal law like this makes you grow spirtiually not hashkofo books. If anything most are banned or at least shunned like guide to the perperlexed by the Rambam. This has been one of the mistakes all along of the Kiruv industry. Only through gemoro and poskim can one become a real BT. There are no alternatives like Tanya and hashkofo books. And of course by keeping all the mitsvot not just picking and choosing.
I’m wondering how many of you read the recent article ( Mishpacha I think ) about Rabbi Bulman Ztz’l and Migdal Ha’Emek. Rav Bulman was always concerned about this problem and tried to build a community which could nurture BT’s. Ohr Somaech also tried to build one in Zichron Ya’akov but when the Tannenbaum funds dried up so did their plans and all that is left is a small Yeshiva and Kollel community.
I am living with my wife and family in a community which is VERY UNCOMFORTABLE for BT’s ( and I am saying this not as my own opinion but rather from advice I have heard from Kiruv professionals ) We have very little support and have not been able to find a Rav who we feel comfortable discussing EVERYthing with. We are a “fully baked” couple but still feel the need for support that is appropriate. I remember reading an article about one BT where she explains her experience of having a community which “adopted” her and having “surrogate parents” also other articles which speak of Rabbanim who maintain an interest and involvement in “their” BT’s as the progress through life marriage / children / etc… I have never felt that anyone who was involved in being M’Karev me had any interest in where I am today ! Although I made many efforts to keep them up to date none of them has ever made any effort to contact me. Makes you feel like you are just another statistic. Sorry to go on a rant here. I became a BT because Torah is Emes and I want a relationship with H’ but the reality is that life as a BT can be very difficult !
I think there is a great variation in the character of communities. I would like to see a list of communities which are supportive and comfortable for BT’s.
This post is about improving facilities for BTs. There are many books in English today so it shouldnt really be necessary. I get the feeling from the last post that the main problem is that BT find it difficult to do all the mitsvot at once. So what one really wants is a rov or mentor to tell you or guide you along. But this is really impossible, because no rov is allowed to say, OK today keep this tomorrow this etc. It usually backfires anyway. An example a BT went to a rov and told him he finds the whole davenning too much to concentrate on, so he told him to just do shma and the amida. He started that way but now only turns up for that saying the rov told him thats enough for him. What he really meant was do the lot even if you cant concentrate on all of it now.
rebbeim for bt’s – the sad reality is that there aren’t enough people qualified. just because someone is a rav does not neccessarily mean he can relate, does not neccessarily mean he is enough of a people-person to establish a firm connection with a growing, anchorless family who may not even feel they need his guidance…it does not mean he has enough life experience to be a significant-enough coach to someone in need of more than halachic guidance. it does not neccessarily mean he has an open home. it does not neccessarily mean he sees it as his mandate to hold anyone’s hand through life trials…
the individuals who fit this bill are rare. i don’t think money is the obstacle, even – it’s way more basic than that. i really think that people who are deemed to have the ability to function in this role must be cultivated and groomed for this role. it’s probably the best way that we as a community can help ourselves.
Newbie, I agree on one point… the major kiruv organizations do seem to be on the right wing side, even if they look more modern often. That was part of my problem, not knowing that there was a more left-wing option because all I saw was right-wing.
“Well quite simple one is nearer the edge or should i say non frum at the left.”
I beg to differ. I experienced a ‘left’ community when I was in Israel that was extremely observant in mitzvoth and learning Torah. They were not nearer to the edge at all. Has anyone done a study of frum Jews and found statistics for which segment of Orthodoxy looses more Jews to OTD?
A ger has no baseline either. As I understand it, they live the mitzvas, in a particular way, for a long time before they are converted. Its quite unfair to say that they suddenly start keeping all the mitzvahs the day that they convert, and its equally unfair to tell a BT to do everything, or even most things, all at once.
BT’s don’t just accept what they understand! There is a whole slew of mitzvahs that nobody understands, so that just doesn’t follow. BT’s become kosher and there isn’t a real explanation for that mitzvah. The idea of keeping ‘the lot’ however hard, however difficult, must be a message you picked up at the kiruv places you mention, because that is the only place I ever got that feeling from. You’re supposed to challenge yourself, not beat yourself, or cow yourself, or squish yourself to fit into some little box. If something is too challenging for the moment, such that it would harm your sense of identity/self/confidence or make you feel ill or OCD, then I don’t think any Rabbi would tell you to go ahead and take on that mitzvah yet.
“One also has to beieve it comes from G-d and he understand better than you.”
Doesn’t there also have to be a belief that God also put you where you are, as a BT and gave you the challenges you face as a BT? If God put me into a life that makes a certain mitzvah especially painful or damaging to myself, then God has part of the responsibility of my not taking that on (yet, or maybe ever?).
Ok. So my advice for Kiruv in general is that there should either be an organization that gives ‘hashkafah counselling’ by telephone or in person, so that people who become frum through an organization but don’t feel quite right (but maybe don’t know that its because of hashgafah not being a good fit with them) should be directed to by those organizations. Or, each kiruv organization should make a concerted effort to include classes about the variety of hashgafahs other than their own.
Every Jew has an obligation to do all applicable positive commandments and to never transgress a negative commandment.
It’s not possible to be non-observant one day and fully observant the next, because you don’t know all the halachos and much of Torah observance involves refining your character traits which takes time.
So you need a process to become a better observant Jew. That process is learn, observe, refine your character traits, learn more, observe more, refine your character traits more…
You write search for truth. As you realise there is no such thing as ‘half-truths’. And again you write what is called the ‘gradual’ acceptance of mitsvot. I think the main problem is that BT’s only accept what they understand. Torah was never given this way. One has to keep ‘the lot’ however hard, however difficult. One also has to beieve it comes from G-d and he understand better than you. What one understands is not called ’emuna’. believing in G-d.
My experience and observations are that kiruv it is significantly conducted by all communities across the board.
There will always be cases of a person not being accepted, and that’s a sad situation, but I think the vast majority of BTs will be accepted in the communities specified above.
I believe the major attraction to become a BT is the search for truth.
– One comes to the conclusion that there is a purposeful Creator who created man for a purpose beyond the physical pleasure-oriented and self-centered world in which we find ourselves.
– That purpose is the discovery and development of a person’s spiritual side which takes one beyond self-centeredness and materialism.
– Proper study of Torah and performance of mitzvos gives the person the life-long plan to achieving that purpose.
One must continually deepen ones knowledge and appreciation of the goals (spiritual development) and the means (Torah, mitzvos and prayer).
It’s also important to know that growth involves overcoming obstacles and every obstacle serves a purpose in your spiritual growth.
You have really made my point. The kiruv business is mainly conducted by those communities who wont afterwards accept them. Although you write the MO or left communities do accept them there is a blog here called michaltastic who has had the opposite experience. You write of the progression but you dont say why you would become a BT in the first place. What is the attraction?
Newby,
Acceptance is very dependent on the community. The communities where acceptance is most difficult is the Right Wing Yeshivish communities (Monsey, Lakewood, much of Brooklyn).
In the Left Wing Yeshivish (Kew Gardens Hills-Queens, Passaic-NJ, Parts of Five Towns-LI), Right Wing Modern Orthodox and Left Wing Modern Orthodox communities, acceptance of BTs is very common.
The progression often proceeds as follows:
1) Learning About Judaism and what’s involved in it’s observance
2) Partial observance
Continue Learning Torah
Kosher – Giving Up Pork and Lobster and Milk and Meat
Prayer – Learning Shema and Shomoneh Esrai
Possibly wearing Tefillin
Shabbos & Yom Tov observance where possible
3) Fuller observance
Continue Learning Torah
Kosher – no non-Kosher restaurants, paper plates or separate dishes in the house, hechshers on food
Prayer – praying three times a day
Wearing Tefillin every day
Shabbos & Yom Tov observance
4) Continue learning and fuller mitzvot observance.
Well quite simple one is nearer the edge or should i say non frum at the left. The real question is why does one want to be BT. You know that you and more importantly your kids unless you have money will never be accepted. You will remain second class. You only find this out later, the kiruv people wont tell you this. A ger also has to assume all the mitvot at once so why should a BT be different. The baseline is like you say you dont want to assume all of them at once, so what is the baseline how many and which ones must one assume to start with.
Bob, I think your idea is great, and very do-able.
newby, why would someone who drifts leftwards be more likely to drift off? I went from left to right and ended up OTD, so it happens the other way too. How exactly does starting slowly lead to total abandonment? Isn’t it a well known scenario that BTs who assume mitzvoth too quickly are likelier to go OTD? What kind of baseline are you talking about? I don’t understand the context of that statement at all.
I suppose its really best for a BT to go elsewhere and start anew and not give out his origins as a BT. This is of course not always practical. Another problem that today there is so many different kinds of frum Yidishkeit from left to right wing that one is not sure where to go. One can start at the right at the deep end and slowly drift leftwards till one goes right off. There is also a concept called improvement which means one starts slowly keeping a bit and not all. This can lead to abandoning all in the end. Like a ger there ought to be some kind of base line.
The following doesn’t address the main question but might be helpful:
Many user manuals and repair manuals have troubleshooting charts, which are a type of flow chart. Decision charts are another type of flow chart.
At many points in the chart, there are options, and which one to take at a given point depends on the situation existing at that point (and the path taken up to that point).
Anyway, how to progress successfully as a BT might be something to lay out graphically in a linked set of electronic flow charts. Relevant anecdotes, stories, reference materials, contacts, etc., could be linked to the decision points.