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	<title>Comments on: Tzadik-Baal Teshuva Symbiosis</title>
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	<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/12/24/tzadik-baal-teshuva-symbiosis/</link>
	<description>Baalei Teshuva / Baalei Teshuvah and Other Growth Oriented Jews</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:23:49 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/12/24/tzadik-baal-teshuva-symbiosis/comment-page-1/#comment-391406</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 19:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1145#comment-391406</guid>
		<description>What percentage of FFBs are perfect tzaddikim who never sinned and never needed to do teshuvah?

There are two Bible verses where King Solomon teaches that there is no man who never sins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What percentage of FFBs are perfect tzaddikim who never sinned and never needed to do teshuvah?</p>
<p>There are two Bible verses where King Solomon teaches that there is no man who never sins.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/12/24/tzadik-baal-teshuva-symbiosis/comment-page-1/#comment-307752</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 17:26:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1145#comment-307752</guid>
		<description>Patton unfortunately fraternized too much with the Germans he defeated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patton unfortunately fraternized too much with the Germans he defeated.</p>
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		<title>By: Chaim Grossferstant</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/12/24/tzadik-baal-teshuva-symbiosis/comment-page-1/#comment-307435</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaim Grossferstant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1145#comment-307435</guid>
		<description>Found a great quote from that speaks to the trampoline effect:

&lt;i&gt;I don&#039;t measure a man&#039;s success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. &lt;/i&gt;
- General George S. Patton 

As it is in war so it is in &lt;i&gt;Milchemes HaYetzer. &lt;/i&gt; This quote nicely somes up what the Tzadik can learn from the BT.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Found a great quote from that speaks to the trampoline effect:</p>
<p><i>I don&#8217;t measure a man&#8217;s success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. </i><br />
- General George S. Patton </p>
<p>As it is in war so it is in <i>Milchemes HaYetzer. </i> This quote nicely somes up what the Tzadik can learn from the BT.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/12/24/tzadik-baal-teshuva-symbiosis/comment-page-1/#comment-305665</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 17:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1145#comment-305665</guid>
		<description>How do you know that life is nothing like a trampoline?  Your personal experience is one data point only.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do you know that life is nothing like a trampoline?  Your personal experience is one data point only.</p>
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		<title>By: Jaded Topaz</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/12/24/tzadik-baal-teshuva-symbiosis/comment-page-1/#comment-305659</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaded Topaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 15:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1145#comment-305659</guid>
		<description>Chaim G,
How would you differentiate between diminished capacities/fear/ and repentance with regards to &quot;Absolutely Teshuva&quot; and not repeating the same mistake or sin twice when encountering the same scenario?
(The first employee contract I ever signed included a mistake slogan that I never forgot)
 &quot;Everyone makes mistakes, as long as you don&#039;t make the same mistake twice&quot;
 
Anyway, diminished capacities can induce repentance.
Fear can diminish capacities.
What if one diminishes their impulses and induces a desire for discipline by enhancing their sense of logic with stimulants, is that considered diminishing the capacity to love sin, and or diminishing the emotional desires or &quot;vigorous&quot; ness.
Can a brain on Ritalin or adderall do an &quot;absolute teshuva&quot; ?
What about the age old question regarding the laundry list of drugs that fix personalities.....
Repentance can sometimes have nothing to do with a father in the sky and more to do with logical living for law lovers.

There are numerous reasons why the &quot;vigorous&quot; lover in the story might not have consummated his desires, when he found himself secluded with her in the same locale he had previously let his emotions get out of hand in.
Aside from 3 options referenced above, diminished capacities, fear and or repentance, there are other logical reasons generally used to determine what makes sense logically in terms of emotional discipline.
And the reasons are similar and different when it&#039;s a woman making those choices .And the emotional repercussions may differ but not due to fear of repercussions from humans, the father in the sky, regret, and or the diminishing desires, but the enhanced logical  understanding that intimate connections are complicated and require a thorough logical and rational analysis before the connection process.
 For starters &quot;repent&quot; alone has numerous definitions as defined by Merriam Webster:
1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one&#039;s life2 a: to feel regret or contrition b: to change one&#039;s mindtransitive verb1: to cause to feel regret or contrition2: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
— re•pent•er noun
 When you say &quot;symbiotic&quot; I&#039;m assuming you are referring to mutualism.
But I&#039;m not sure what &quot;symbiotic&quot; has to do with accomplishments in question from both individuals.
It&#039;s not clear from your essay how the teshuvah lover has benefited from the tzadik that never sinned. And or how the tzadik benefited from the teshuvah lover.
What does the teshuvah lover&#039;s attaining the deepest heights of spirituality due to the deepest depths of non-spirituality; have to do with the tzaddik that never sinned?
And what does the sin less state of the tzaddik have to do with the teshuvah lover.

I dont understand your assertion that the harder the fall the greater the height potential.
Are you saying that falling hard into the depths of spiritual despair can only occur if the original sparks of spirituality were  at one point in a supposed very lofty position ?
But how does the original state of something prove the definite future potential of something.
Life is nothing like a trampoline.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chaim G,<br />
How would you differentiate between diminished capacities/fear/ and repentance with regards to &#8220;Absolutely Teshuva&#8221; and not repeating the same mistake or sin twice when encountering the same scenario?<br />
(The first employee contract I ever signed included a mistake slogan that I never forgot)<br />
 &#8220;Everyone makes mistakes, as long as you don&#8217;t make the same mistake twice&#8221;</p>
<p>Anyway, diminished capacities can induce repentance.<br />
Fear can diminish capacities.<br />
What if one diminishes their impulses and induces a desire for discipline by enhancing their sense of logic with stimulants, is that considered diminishing the capacity to love sin, and or diminishing the emotional desires or &#8220;vigorous&#8221; ness.<br />
Can a brain on Ritalin or adderall do an &#8220;absolute teshuva&#8221; ?<br />
What about the age old question regarding the laundry list of drugs that fix personalities&#8230;..<br />
Repentance can sometimes have nothing to do with a father in the sky and more to do with logical living for law lovers.</p>
<p>There are numerous reasons why the &#8220;vigorous&#8221; lover in the story might not have consummated his desires, when he found himself secluded with her in the same locale he had previously let his emotions get out of hand in.<br />
Aside from 3 options referenced above, diminished capacities, fear and or repentance, there are other logical reasons generally used to determine what makes sense logically in terms of emotional discipline.<br />
And the reasons are similar and different when it&#8217;s a woman making those choices .And the emotional repercussions may differ but not due to fear of repercussions from humans, the father in the sky, regret, and or the diminishing desires, but the enhanced logical  understanding that intimate connections are complicated and require a thorough logical and rational analysis before the connection process.<br />
 For starters &#8220;repent&#8221; alone has numerous definitions as defined by Merriam Webster:<br />
1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one&#8217;s life2 a: to feel regret or contrition b: to change one&#8217;s mindtransitive verb1: to cause to feel regret or contrition2: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for<br />
— re•pent•er noun<br />
 When you say &#8220;symbiotic&#8221; I&#8217;m assuming you are referring to mutualism.<br />
But I&#8217;m not sure what &#8220;symbiotic&#8221; has to do with accomplishments in question from both individuals.<br />
It&#8217;s not clear from your essay how the teshuvah lover has benefited from the tzadik that never sinned. And or how the tzadik benefited from the teshuvah lover.<br />
What does the teshuvah lover&#8217;s attaining the deepest heights of spirituality due to the deepest depths of non-spirituality; have to do with the tzaddik that never sinned?<br />
And what does the sin less state of the tzaddik have to do with the teshuvah lover.</p>
<p>I dont understand your assertion that the harder the fall the greater the height potential.<br />
Are you saying that falling hard into the depths of spiritual despair can only occur if the original sparks of spirituality were  at one point in a supposed very lofty position ?<br />
But how does the original state of something prove the definite future potential of something.<br />
Life is nothing like a trampoline.</p>
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		<title>By: yy</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/12/24/tzadik-baal-teshuva-symbiosis/comment-page-1/#comment-305386</link>
		<dc:creator>yy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 23:03:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1145#comment-305386</guid>
		<description>Should we label these hijackers as blog-terrorists... or just freedom fighters for the right to inject urgent Klal issues into a Klal blog?!

Btw Chaiim,I&#039;ve seen sifrei tsaddikkim that explain that in essence, Yhuda was more of the Tsaddik!  Midrash says a &quot;Malach&quot; forced him into his act with Tamar and not his personal desire whatsoever.  His greatness was in recognizing his hasty judgment and acknowledging who was &quot;Tsodek.&quot;

Hence HE became tsaddik!

In contrast, Yosef genuinely struggled with his tayva / lust and came out of the trial with a giant tikkun.

Sounds more like a BT, no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Should we label these hijackers as blog-terrorists&#8230; or just freedom fighters for the right to inject urgent Klal issues into a Klal blog?!</p>
<p>Btw Chaiim,I&#8217;ve seen sifrei tsaddikkim that explain that in essence, Yhuda was more of the Tsaddik!  Midrash says a &#8220;Malach&#8221; forced him into his act with Tamar and not his personal desire whatsoever.  His greatness was in recognizing his hasty judgment and acknowledging who was &#8220;Tsodek.&#8221;</p>
<p>Hence HE became tsaddik!</p>
<p>In contrast, Yosef genuinely struggled with his tayva / lust and came out of the trial with a giant tikkun.</p>
<p>Sounds more like a BT, no?</p>
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		<title>By: Chaim Grossferstant</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/12/24/tzadik-baal-teshuva-symbiosis/comment-page-1/#comment-305375</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaim Grossferstant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 20:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1145#comment-305375</guid>
		<description>sorry.  didn&#039;t see your last comment when I wrote mine.  interesting parallel.  Both teraffim and goblet were used for divining-prognosticating the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sorry.  didn&#8217;t see your last comment when I wrote mine.  interesting parallel.  Both teraffim and goblet were used for divining-prognosticating the future.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/12/24/tzadik-baal-teshuva-symbiosis/comment-page-1/#comment-305374</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 20:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1145#comment-305374</guid>
		<description>1.  It is well known that all strata of a properly ordered Jewish society interact spiritually to everyone&#039;s benefit.  Not only Tzaddikim and Baalei Teshuva, as in this article&#039;s example, but across the board.  Everyone has something to offer.

2.  Have a good day!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1.  It is well known that all strata of a properly ordered Jewish society interact spiritually to everyone&#8217;s benefit.  Not only Tzaddikim and Baalei Teshuva, as in this article&#8217;s example, but across the board.  Everyone has something to offer.</p>
<p>2.  Have a good day!</p>
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		<title>By: Chaim Grossferstant</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/12/24/tzadik-baal-teshuva-symbiosis/comment-page-1/#comment-305372</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaim Grossferstant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 20:27:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1145#comment-305372</guid>
		<description>I would&#039;ve prefeered no comments to this.

The former is passively ignoring the post while this is actively ignoring the post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would&#8217;ve prefeered no comments to this.</p>
<p>The former is passively ignoring the post while this is actively ignoring the post.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/12/24/tzadik-baal-teshuva-symbiosis/comment-page-1/#comment-305371</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 20:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1145#comment-305371</guid>
		<description>Now that we&#039;re back, I&#039;d like to ask about the seeming parallels between Binyamin/&quot;stolen&quot; goblet and Rachel/stolen teraphim.  In planning the goblet episode, was Yosef somehow preoccupied with the fate of his mother?  Yaakov told Lavan that the teraphim thief would die.  Yosef pointedly rejected the idea presented to him that the goblet thief should die.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now that we&#8217;re back, I&#8217;d like to ask about the seeming parallels between Binyamin/&#8221;stolen&#8221; goblet and Rachel/stolen teraphim.  In planning the goblet episode, was Yosef somehow preoccupied with the fate of his mother?  Yaakov told Lavan that the teraphim thief would die.  Yosef pointedly rejected the idea presented to him that the goblet thief should die.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/12/24/tzadik-baal-teshuva-symbiosis/comment-page-1/#comment-305370</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 20:22:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1145#comment-305370</guid>
		<description>Here, Chaim, you can have it back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here, Chaim, you can have it back.</p>
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		<title>By: Chaim Grossferstant</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/12/24/tzadik-baal-teshuva-symbiosis/comment-page-1/#comment-305367</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaim Grossferstant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 19:27:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1145#comment-305367</guid>
		<description>thanks for hijacking the comment thread.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks for hijacking the comment thread.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/12/24/tzadik-baal-teshuva-symbiosis/comment-page-1/#comment-305366</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 19:11:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1145#comment-305366</guid>
		<description>s/b &quot;anyhow&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>s/b &#8220;anyhow&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/12/24/tzadik-baal-teshuva-symbiosis/comment-page-1/#comment-305365</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 19:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1145#comment-305365</guid>
		<description>Tzirelchana, I did look.  Your emphasis on our need to progress collectively in Yiddishkeit is well-taken.  However, your idea that Israel&#039;s military should not fight outside its own turf, and that such action should be considered as offensive (as opposed to defensive) is strange.  For the Allied nations, World War 2 was a response to aggression, but no one argued against taking the war to the enemy&#039;s territory as soon as practical.  Not to mention that Gaza is not really foreign territory anhyhow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tzirelchana, I did look.  Your emphasis on our need to progress collectively in Yiddishkeit is well-taken.  However, your idea that Israel&#8217;s military should not fight outside its own turf, and that such action should be considered as offensive (as opposed to defensive) is strange.  For the Allied nations, World War 2 was a response to aggression, but no one argued against taking the war to the enemy&#8217;s territory as soon as practical.  Not to mention that Gaza is not really foreign territory anhyhow.</p>
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		<title>By: tzirelchana</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/12/24/tzadik-baal-teshuva-symbiosis/comment-page-1/#comment-305066</link>
		<dc:creator>tzirelchana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 10:42:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1145#comment-305066</guid>
		<description>Why aren&#039;t you guys writing about what is going on in Israel. This is the most vital stuff around. I just started a blog called &lt;a href=&quot;http://athinthreadoffaith.blogspot.com &quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;athinthreadoffaith.blogspot.com &lt;/a&gt;and I invite everyone to have a look</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why aren&#8217;t you guys writing about what is going on in Israel. This is the most vital stuff around. I just started a blog called <a href="http://athinthreadoffaith.blogspot.com " rel="nofollow">athinthreadoffaith.blogspot.com </a>and I invite everyone to have a look</p>
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