Comments on: Navigating Religious Divides

By: Judy Resnick

Judy Resnick — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 19:36:31 +0000

My parents are both gone, sadly. My dear father Joe was niftar in 1985 and my dear mother Rhoda was niftar in 1994. It was not always easy between me the BT and my non-observant Jewish parents, but everyone tried very hard to make it work. The frum children adored their grandparents and the feeling was mutual. My oldest girl named her second boy after Grandpa Joe and my next two girls named their daughters after Grandma Rhoda. If there is love and respect on both sides a lot of obstacles can be gotten past. Of course, there still may be misunderstandings that occur, like when Grandma came for Pesach and brought as a gift for the kids a can of Play-Doh….which just happens to be chometz gmar.

By: Steve Brizel

Steve Brizel — Thu, 24 Dec 2009 02:03:26 +0000

Neil Harris’ last point is very well taken. Once grandparents go to Siddur and Chumash parties, etc and see parents and teachers, etc, the question of “How do Orthodox Jews celebrate a Bar ( or Bas) Mitzvah” just might seem a lot less foreign to their POV.

By: Neil Harris

Neil Harris — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 21:22:37 +0000

Miriam hit the nail on the head by writing:
“She just hasn’t internalized that my kids are being raised very differently than I was..”

That’s a big factor. My parents knew that their frum grandchildren attended day school, but until they say the school and met the Rabbeim/Morehs they thought it really was just a glorified “Hebrew School” that went all day.

Knowing that you can’t call your children/grandchildren until after nightfall Sat night is very different than actually spending a Shabbos with them.

By: Miriam Peromsik

Miriam Peromsik — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 18:42:22 +0000

I’mJewish, the book was ours — it was a gift from my parents, but it was given to us to keep, one of a collection of Braille/Print books that we save for when my parents visit. My father completely understood and sanctioned my tossing the book, and he now screens all such books by me before purchasing them for my kids. I think I have the right to determine what comes into and stays in my house in terms of Kosher literature as much as I do in terms of Kosher food.

My father had read this particular book to them many times, and just not explained the game. I was a little uncomfortable with the veiled allusion, but let it go, until my mother made a point of *explaining* that it was a kissing game. I don’t know how familiar with the Arthur series you are, but the characters in it were all LITTLE KIDS — 8 or 9 at the most. The main premise of the book was that a boy and a girl were having birthday parties on the same day, and “parties just aren’t fun without boys *and* girls.” (Not something I believe in the first place!) I think there may have been a reference to how you can’t play spin-the-bottle at a segregated party. At the end they wind up combining the parties and end with one of the girls insisting that now they need to play spin-the-bottle.

I was using the scenario with the book as an example of a cultural divide — it never occurred to my mother that I wouldn’t want my small children (none older than 10 at the time) to know about a kissing game. She just hasn’t internalized that my kids are being raised very differently than I was, although she isn’t (is no longer?) purposely antagonistic towards it either. And my father is very supportive.

By: Mark Frankel

Mark Frankel — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 18:30:09 +0000

I’m Jewish, don’t we need to be open minded enough to accept the fact that different families will have different sensibilities and will draw the line in different places.

By: I'mJewish

I'mJewish — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 18:23:51 +0000

Ok, well, then, I suppose being upset over your child hearing about a veiled allusion — “almost innocent reference” in the poster’s words — to spin-the-bottle is worth the family disruption it causes. Certainly we can all distinguish between a veiled allusion to a game in a child’s book, and Grandma and Grandpa showing the kiddies porn?

By: Albany Jew

Albany Jew — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:19:31 +0000

I don’t know IJ, I personally reserve the right to dispose of any of my kid’s gifts that I deem inappropriate. And a six year old can generally read so it wouldn’t help to tell them not to read it to them.

By: I'mJewish

I'mJewish — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:17:48 +0000

“They only knew the game even existed because of an almost innocent (without explaining the actual game) reference in a braille/print “Arthur” book, of all places, that my parents had bought the kids so that my father could read to them. After she explained it, I tossed the book. I hate tossing Braille books, but she ruined it for them.”

I’m failing to see how you can toss someone else’s property. It wasn’t yours to toss. Might it have worked better if you then explained you didn’t want your children to hear that particular story? Surely your parents brought you up better than that.

By: Steve Brizel

Steve Brizel — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:09:03 +0000

One has to wonder about the lack of tolerance that was manifested in many of the posted reactions to the NY Times article by many who apparently consider themselves “tolerant”-but only to the extent to the end of their own noses or what they consider a proper and PC way of life.

By: Gary

Gary — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 02:41:23 +0000

Mark (#14),

If we are to keep our rabbis “in reserve” for the harder questions, we need should periodically revisit our list of priorities. Enhancing, maintaining and even restoring family relationships should be at or near the top of the list.

By: Albany Jew

Albany Jew — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 02:28:55 +0000

Mark,

Of course not, but if big issues come up such as the ones in this post (the possible alienating of parents) I would consider it an imperative to make sure I knew all of my options before making a decision.

By: Steve Brizel

Steve Brizel — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 02:18:29 +0000

Sooner or later, IMO, both sides involved in the issue have to ask themselves if they really want to maintain a relationship, regardless of the differences. The key is the ability to get past resentment and control issues, which IMO were manifested by many of the responses to the NY Times article.

By: tesyaa

tesyaa — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 01:28:17 +0000

I would posit that if the parent-child relationship is dysfunctional (extreme superficiality, or parent harboring resentment, etc.), then the child’s becoming frum might indeed become an insurmountable obstacle, from the parent’s perspective, towards building a real relationship.

I would add that in some cases, the dysfunctional relationship may have been one impetus for the child to seek out religion. Or the child may have purposefully become more religious knowing that it would be against the parent’s wishes.

By: Bob Miller

Bob Miller — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:36:36 +0000

When we need advice from a Rav on family matters, we try whenever possible to use a particular Rav who has helped us in the past and has developed a good understanding of our extended family members and their interactions. In principle, some other rabbonim we know are suited to dealing with such questions, but it would be very difficult to bring them up to speed about the family details.

By: Mark Frankel

Mark Frankel — Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:26:30 +0000

AJ, It’s not an all or nothing thing. Many/most people have a Rav, but if they’re good, they’re busy and not accessible all the time and a person learns to use them for the harder questions and navigate the rest on their own.

It is expected in Torah, that at varying points in time and on varying issues that you take the responsibility for certain decisions and interactions. For example, I’m sure you don’t call your Rav every time your child misbehaves to talk out your possible Torah based responses.