<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Vaccinating Our Children Against Prayer</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/20/vaccinating-our-children-against-prayer/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/20/vaccinating-our-children-against-prayer/</link>
	<description>Baalei Teshuva / Baalei Teshuvah and Other Growth Oriented Jews</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:28:24 -0800</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Neil Harris</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/20/vaccinating-our-children-against-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-385969</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 18:00:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1512#comment-385969</guid>
		<description>Nathan,
Sometimes (and I write this a parent) kids in shul can make things difficult in terms of davening/kavana.  I happen to be one of those parents that does bring his older kids to shul on Shabbos.
It is important when dealing with your on children and when observing the behavior of other kids to remember that children look to adults as role-models and that these children will eventually be halachik adults and play important parts in our communities.
Even the most obnoxious child was created in the image of Hashem and has a very holy neshamah.
I&#039;m sorry you&#039;ve had such bad experiences with children in shul, but don&#039;t let that taint the greatness and beauty of the a Torah observant lifestyle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nathan,<br />
Sometimes (and I write this a parent) kids in shul can make things difficult in terms of davening/kavana.  I happen to be one of those parents that does bring his older kids to shul on Shabbos.<br />
It is important when dealing with your on children and when observing the behavior of other kids to remember that children look to adults as role-models and that these children will eventually be halachik adults and play important parts in our communities.<br />
Even the most obnoxious child was created in the image of Hashem and has a very holy neshamah.<br />
I&#8217;m sorry you&#8217;ve had such bad experiences with children in shul, but don&#8217;t let that taint the greatness and beauty of the a Torah observant lifestyle.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/20/vaccinating-our-children-against-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-385944</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1512#comment-385944</guid>
		<description>Nathan, when you truly believe HaShem has selected you for greatness---that is, to be a Jew---you don&#039;t let these things pull you off course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nathan, when you truly believe HaShem has selected you for greatness&#8212;that is, to be a Jew&#8212;you don&#8217;t let these things pull you off course.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/20/vaccinating-our-children-against-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-385924</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 06:23:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1512#comment-385924</guid>
		<description>I do not have the time to adequately describe how I have suffered from children in shul.  And if I did write about it, you would not have enough time to read it, and you might not believe it.

Let me just say that there have been several times when I have come very close to fleeing Judaism completely because of children in shul.

There is still a good chance that I may dump Judaism completely after 25 years as a Baal Teshuvah, and a very big part of that is the unbelievable suffering I have experienced from children in shul.

Children in shul have ruined my Judaism, ruined my happiness and ruined my life.

The synagogue Rabbis know that children in shul are a violation of Halachah, but if they want to avoid getting fired, they must keep their mouths shut on this issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not have the time to adequately describe how I have suffered from children in shul.  And if I did write about it, you would not have enough time to read it, and you might not believe it.</p>
<p>Let me just say that there have been several times when I have come very close to fleeing Judaism completely because of children in shul.</p>
<p>There is still a good chance that I may dump Judaism completely after 25 years as a Baal Teshuvah, and a very big part of that is the unbelievable suffering I have experienced from children in shul.</p>
<p>Children in shul have ruined my Judaism, ruined my happiness and ruined my life.</p>
<p>The synagogue Rabbis know that children in shul are a violation of Halachah, but if they want to avoid getting fired, they must keep their mouths shut on this issue.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ron Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/20/vaccinating-our-children-against-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-385886</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 21:48:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1512#comment-385886</guid>
		<description>&quot;Not taking the kids&quot; can be more of a problem for BT&#039;s than for others.  We don&#039;t usually have resource to as much family support and other babysitting options as our neighbors.  At the same time, our womenfolk may be more frustrated by staying at home instead of attending shul, give their backgrounds.  The halacha is not changed by this, but in considering this challenge we need to think in terms of our expectations and limitations as BT&#039;s, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Not taking the kids&#8221; can be more of a problem for BT&#8217;s than for others.  We don&#8217;t usually have resource to as much family support and other babysitting options as our neighbors.  At the same time, our womenfolk may be more frustrated by staying at home instead of attending shul, give their backgrounds.  The halacha is not changed by this, but in considering this challenge we need to think in terms of our expectations and limitations as BT&#8217;s, too.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/20/vaccinating-our-children-against-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-385865</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 16:55:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1512#comment-385865</guid>
		<description>In response to Nathan (#12),

Nathan,

That certainly is the halachah, and we must follow it.

While we may think our children are at the &quot;age of chinuch,&quot; not every visit to shul is going to work out as expected. We have to try to acclimate them to shul when we think they are ready. However, if it is not going well on a particular day, we have to get up in mid-service and go home, for the sake of all concerned. We also have to try again the next week or shortly thereafter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to Nathan (#12),</p>
<p>Nathan,</p>
<p>That certainly is the halachah, and we must follow it.</p>
<p>While we may think our children are at the &#8220;age of chinuch,&#8221; not every visit to shul is going to work out as expected. We have to try to acclimate them to shul when we think they are ready. However, if it is not going well on a particular day, we have to get up in mid-service and go home, for the sake of all concerned. We also have to try again the next week or shortly thereafter.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/20/vaccinating-our-children-against-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-385859</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 14:19:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1512#comment-385859</guid>
		<description>In response to Gary (message number 11):

Mishnah Berurah on Orach Chaim, Siman 98, Sif 1, Sif Katan 3:

The Shelah [Sefer Shnei Luchot HaBrit, written by Rabbi Isaiah Horowitz, born 1565, died 1630] rebukes those bring young children to synagogue, meaning those who are below the age of chinuch, because they play and dance in the synagogue.

When children play and dance in the synagogue they profane its sanctity and confuse the minds of the congregants.  Also, when they become older, they will not cease from the bad way of their childhood, to play and offend the sanctity of the synagogue.

But if they have reached the age of chinuch, on the contrary, they should be brought to synagogue and taught the paths of life, to sit with awe and fear, and not move from his place, and he should be encouraged to answer AMEN to kaddish and kedushah…</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to Gary (message number 11):</p>
<p>Mishnah Berurah on Orach Chaim, Siman 98, Sif 1, Sif Katan 3:</p>
<p>The Shelah [Sefer Shnei Luchot HaBrit, written by Rabbi Isaiah Horowitz, born 1565, died 1630] rebukes those bring young children to synagogue, meaning those who are below the age of chinuch, because they play and dance in the synagogue.</p>
<p>When children play and dance in the synagogue they profane its sanctity and confuse the minds of the congregants.  Also, when they become older, they will not cease from the bad way of their childhood, to play and offend the sanctity of the synagogue.</p>
<p>But if they have reached the age of chinuch, on the contrary, they should be brought to synagogue and taught the paths of life, to sit with awe and fear, and not move from his place, and he should be encouraged to answer AMEN to kaddish and kedushah…</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/20/vaccinating-our-children-against-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-385828</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 03:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1512#comment-385828</guid>
		<description>Nathan (#3) wrote:

&quot;The primary purpose of prohibiting young children from attending in shul is to prevent them from disturbing the adults.

This prohibition has the additional benefit of preventing young children from becoming vaccinated against prayer.&quot;

Nathan, I understand your first point, and I would like to expand on your second.

If young children associate the synagogue as a place where they can&#039;t act like  young children, they will come to resent the synagogue and it&#039;s reason for existence, which is prayer.

It is best to delay bringing children to shul until they are at an age where they can be smoothly integrated into public prayer. 

We need to be prepared to leave early and take them home if things aren&#039;t working out as expected. When my kids were young, if they acted up in shul, I would take them to the lobby for one breather. If they didn&#039;t settle down upon our return, we would leave and I would complete my prayers at home. I would try to make the trip home as much fun as possible, so they would not feel that they were being punished for acting their actual age, rather than what I thought their age should be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nathan (#3) wrote:</p>
<p>&#8220;The primary purpose of prohibiting young children from attending in shul is to prevent them from disturbing the adults.</p>
<p>This prohibition has the additional benefit of preventing young children from becoming vaccinated against prayer.&#8221;</p>
<p>Nathan, I understand your first point, and I would like to expand on your second.</p>
<p>If young children associate the synagogue as a place where they can&#8217;t act like  young children, they will come to resent the synagogue and it&#8217;s reason for existence, which is prayer.</p>
<p>It is best to delay bringing children to shul until they are at an age where they can be smoothly integrated into public prayer. </p>
<p>We need to be prepared to leave early and take them home if things aren&#8217;t working out as expected. When my kids were young, if they acted up in shul, I would take them to the lobby for one breather. If they didn&#8217;t settle down upon our return, we would leave and I would complete my prayers at home. I would try to make the trip home as much fun as possible, so they would not feel that they were being punished for acting their actual age, rather than what I thought their age should be.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/20/vaccinating-our-children-against-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-385498</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:30:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1512#comment-385498</guid>
		<description>Bob Miller (message 8) please read my message (number 3).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob Miller (message 8) please read my message (number 3).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David K</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/20/vaccinating-our-children-against-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-385482</link>
		<dc:creator>David K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:34:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1512#comment-385482</guid>
		<description>A somewhat related matter.  I can tune out, to a certain extent, the talking of others in shul.  I really take exception to it, though, if my 6 year old is there.  Adults should know that they&#039;re responsible for the chinuk of everyone&#039;s kids when they&#039;re in shul.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A somewhat related matter.  I can tune out, to a certain extent, the talking of others in shul.  I really take exception to it, though, if my 6 year old is there.  Adults should know that they&#8217;re responsible for the chinuk of everyone&#8217;s kids when they&#8217;re in shul.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/20/vaccinating-our-children-against-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-385452</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:46:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1512#comment-385452</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll also add that kids often cause considerable physical damage to shul buildings.  One wonders what they are allowed to do at home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll also add that kids often cause considerable physical damage to shul buildings.  One wonders what they are allowed to do at home.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: PL</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/20/vaccinating-our-children-against-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-385436</link>
		<dc:creator>PL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:09:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1512#comment-385436</guid>
		<description>Bob, I don&#039;t see that it&#039;s a shul&#039;s responsibility to be a day-camp. Parents should not take children to shul if they are running around creating a disturbance, or if safety is compromised. 

I think a parent should determine when their child is old enough to go on occasion, and the child should be sitting right next to the parent. Shacharis should be last; a shorter tefilah like Mincha is appropriate for the younger child. The infrequent occasion can progress to more frequent shul visits. When a child begs to go to shul, and sees it as a privilege to sit near daddy, misbehavior is rare, and &quot;forcing&quot; never comes into play.

A shul is for tefila, not a day-camp, and the responsibility belongs to the parent. Those shuls that offer activities and structure for children are doing an incredible chessed that should not be seen as a normal, to-be-expected component of a shul&#039;s activities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob, I don&#8217;t see that it&#8217;s a shul&#8217;s responsibility to be a day-camp. Parents should not take children to shul if they are running around creating a disturbance, or if safety is compromised. </p>
<p>I think a parent should determine when their child is old enough to go on occasion, and the child should be sitting right next to the parent. Shacharis should be last; a shorter tefilah like Mincha is appropriate for the younger child. The infrequent occasion can progress to more frequent shul visits. When a child begs to go to shul, and sees it as a privilege to sit near daddy, misbehavior is rare, and &#8220;forcing&#8221; never comes into play.</p>
<p>A shul is for tefila, not a day-camp, and the responsibility belongs to the parent. Those shuls that offer activities and structure for children are doing an incredible chessed that should not be seen as a normal, to-be-expected component of a shul&#8217;s activities.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/20/vaccinating-our-children-against-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-385434</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:49:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1512#comment-385434</guid>
		<description>Watch out though for shuls that do not structure the activities of children who come on Shabbos.  If neither the shul nor the parents are minding the kids, the kids find parts of the shul to play in and are not exposed to the service.  The shul is not supposed to be a play area for unsupervised kids yelling and running wild.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Watch out though for shuls that do not structure the activities of children who come on Shabbos.  If neither the shul nor the parents are minding the kids, the kids find parts of the shul to play in and are not exposed to the service.  The shul is not supposed to be a play area for unsupervised kids yelling and running wild.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: PL</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/20/vaccinating-our-children-against-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-385378</link>
		<dc:creator>PL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 01:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1512#comment-385378</guid>
		<description>&quot;being dragged off to shul, forced to stand for long prayer periods at school and camp without having a clue as to what you are doing is “vaccination” enough for anyone.&quot;

Not an optimal situation, true. Suggestion- make davening exciting for your child, don&#039;t let them go to shul too early and hold them back when they wish to, doling it out slowly- they should feel that going to shul is a privilege. Once the child is older and going regularly, try to have dad or another family member/friend walk with the child to and fro (or drive), so it is always seen as an opportunity for good conversation- they will look forward to private time, and make wonderful and positive associations with the tefila time.

Many schools generate a lot of excitement in the earlier elementary years when the children are &quot;allowed&quot; to say another tefila in shacharis- there is a slow buildup to full Tefilah that is very exciting for the children. Then, they get a lot of positive feedback for the davening. 

Children don&#039;t have to be dragged, forced, etc. I know many children who are not &quot;vaccinated against tefilah&quot;, fortunately.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;being dragged off to shul, forced to stand for long prayer periods at school and camp without having a clue as to what you are doing is “vaccination” enough for anyone.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not an optimal situation, true. Suggestion- make davening exciting for your child, don&#8217;t let them go to shul too early and hold them back when they wish to, doling it out slowly- they should feel that going to shul is a privilege. Once the child is older and going regularly, try to have dad or another family member/friend walk with the child to and fro (or drive), so it is always seen as an opportunity for good conversation- they will look forward to private time, and make wonderful and positive associations with the tefila time.</p>
<p>Many schools generate a lot of excitement in the earlier elementary years when the children are &#8220;allowed&#8221; to say another tefila in shacharis- there is a slow buildup to full Tefilah that is very exciting for the children. Then, they get a lot of positive feedback for the davening. </p>
<p>Children don&#8217;t have to be dragged, forced, etc. I know many children who are not &#8220;vaccinated against tefilah&#8221;, fortunately.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ChanaLeah</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/20/vaccinating-our-children-against-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-385345</link>
		<dc:creator>ChanaLeah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1512#comment-385345</guid>
		<description>Nice post Azriella.  Have you considered davening for chizuk in davening?  Sometimes I get so caught up in the &quot;should-be&quot; of davening that I forget we can ask Hashem for help in every area of conflict, even in finding meaning in davening!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post Azriella.  Have you considered davening for chizuk in davening?  Sometimes I get so caught up in the &#8220;should-be&#8221; of davening that I forget we can ask Hashem for help in every area of conflict, even in finding meaning in davening!!!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/10/20/vaccinating-our-children-against-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-385343</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:49:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1512#comment-385343</guid>
		<description>In the year 2000, Rabbi Abraham J. Twerski MD published a book titled Wisdom Each Day.

In this book, in the reading for Shevat 22, on page 142, Rabbi Twerski teaches:

&quot;ALL halachic authorities state that children who are too young to be able to sit quietly in shul, should NOT be brought to shul.&quot;

The primary purpose of prohibiting young children from attending in shul is to prevent them from disturbing the adults.

This prohibition has the additional benefit of preventing young children from becoming vaccinated against prayer.

Mishnah Berurah on Orach Chaim, Siman 124, Sif 7, Sif Katan 28:

THE LITTLE ONES.  It is necessary to train them to stand in awe and fear [in the synagogue].  And especially the little ones, who run around the synagogue and play, it is better to NOT bring them, because habit becomes nature, and they will disturb the congregation in their prayer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the year 2000, Rabbi Abraham J. Twerski MD published a book titled Wisdom Each Day.</p>
<p>In this book, in the reading for Shevat 22, on page 142, Rabbi Twerski teaches:</p>
<p>&#8220;ALL halachic authorities state that children who are too young to be able to sit quietly in shul, should NOT be brought to shul.&#8221;</p>
<p>The primary purpose of prohibiting young children from attending in shul is to prevent them from disturbing the adults.</p>
<p>This prohibition has the additional benefit of preventing young children from becoming vaccinated against prayer.</p>
<p>Mishnah Berurah on Orach Chaim, Siman 124, Sif 7, Sif Katan 28:</p>
<p>THE LITTLE ONES.  It is necessary to train them to stand in awe and fear [in the synagogue].  And especially the little ones, who run around the synagogue and play, it is better to NOT bring them, because habit becomes nature, and they will disturb the congregation in their prayer.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
