I very strongly disagree with this kind of thinking.

As to Ben’s statement “I still would not recommend secular university to anyone”, perhaps he means that if possible, a person should be well grounded in Torah before he immerses himself in secular university and is constantly exposed to many philosophies that are contradictory to Torah.

I doubt he means that. I think he is probably saying something along the lines of what LC said: It’s not the college learning, it’s the college world that is the big stumbling block in our time.

What a tragedy it would be for someone who makes so much effort to live a life that reflects the Torah’s values regarding modesty, dignity and appropriate relations between the sexes to put himself or herself to such a severe test as presence on a modern-day college campus would constitute.

It need not be said how unthinkable it is for someone who has any understanding, much less a deep one, of Jewish sensibility on this score, voluntarily to place his own child into such an environment.

Peleg-The purpose of the article was not to be negative at all but to try to help other Jews who are in need of a boost.

Ksiva vChasima Tova,
Ben

During my six years of graduate school in Alabama, it was my Friday dinners month after month with a frum couple that reinforced my Jewish identity, deflected the temptation of intermarriage, and made possible my later BT Derech. I now have four young FFB children, and in my view, they owe their lives to those Shabbos dinners so many years ago. If Joel and Miriam gained anything from their education since then, so much the better… but there’s no question, from my perspective, their education was worth it.

Interesting position.

I’ve got some highly educated non-Jewish colleagues who express great concern regarding the environment on campus for their children. And these are parents who provided a proper, civilized upbringing for their children.

My response to her, which I think fits in with this post, is that while political professors such as Edward Said get a lot of media attention, the overwhelming majority of teachers at every college are doing their job: teaching. Additionally, for every Mark Rudd or Tom Hayden or “Bluto Blutarsky” (or their modern replacements) there are dozens of students doing their job: learning.

We should vett a college’s housing and social scene in order to give our children guidance in choosing a living arrangement at a particular school, or deciding if they should even go to that school. But to put general knowledge on the back burner or dismiss it outright because of a few bad apples in the faculty or the student body is counterproductive.

I don’t think the in-class education is a big deal in most people’s book, but the rampant immorality and iresponsibility – and encouragement to do likewise – permeating dorm life are a big deal, especially to a teenager straight from his/her parents’ home.

From experience, I’d say a young BT (public HS, etc.) has a much easier chance of success than someone who went to day school and grew up sheltered to any degree. For an FFB to not get sucked in takes a strong commitment from day ONE to consciously hold on to their Yiddishkeit, and I’d guess many “day school” kids aren’t thinking about it in those terms. Someone who has already made a conscious choice *knows* it won’t be easy.

A strong Jewish presence on campus helps too; Chabad, frum Hillel, etc.

Peleg, secular education covers a wide range and there is a vast difference between the hard sciences (math, physics, chem, etc..), the soft sciences (psychology, sociology..), practical subjects (accounting, computers) and subjects like philosophy, english literature and middle east studies.

I also think that your treatment of the Yeshiva world’s view of secular subjects is a bit superficial. For starters, the Gemorra itself says that there is wisdom in the secular world. In America, most people immersed in Torah do value secular knowledge, but there will be differences on evaluating the pros and cons of studying each particular subject for a given person.

As to Ben’s statement “I still would not recommend secular university to anyone”, perhaps he means that if possible, a person should be well grounded in Torah before he immerses himself in secular university and is constantly exposed to many philosophies that are contradictory to Torah.

In today’s society, the left/liberal administrators and faculty members of educational institutions view student indoctrination into their own social/political beliefs as essential. People who have seen this in person or have read about the well-documented indoctrination campaigns can’t be snowed by some mere blog comment. Think a moment about why Yale mandated coed dorm life for undergrads.

And if you actually do a proper job of secular learning, you should come away an understanding that it is only a threat to the frumkeit of those who don’t really understand the secular way of thinking.

Well, yeah, there is one more thing. You gotta let go of this silly notion that *ALL* knowledge is contained in Torah. That is about the weakest defense of Torah and frumkeit that I can think of because even an idiot can think of so many counterexamples.

Oh, right, the answer is that we just don’t know how to find that knowledge in Torah. If so, then what is the practical difference of it not being there at all? And if it was there, but we could only find it by going to a university and have it explained to us by secualar chachamim, then what is the problem with that?

Remember, it is secular, humanist knowledge. It is not about G-d or religion. (Funny that one would think that such knowledge would be in Torah. Well, you said it, I didn’t.) Most of it isn’t anti-G-d, or religion. It is just all rather matter-of-fact and very empirical. Most of it isn’t about ABSOLUTE TRUTH, but the quest for that TRUTH. Humm… Sounds like Torah right there. They say they are still looking for it, we say we’ve found it. They say we’re idiots, we say they’re closing themselves off to a wonderful, additional body of knowledge and way of life.

How about realizing that we are not really playing by the same rules for what determines knowledge and truth? So, which set of rules is better?

Well, our way of life isn’t physically better because of the things we get from Torah. Incredible machines and electronics and medicines weren’t discovered by a bunch a rabbis. While some of them may have had semicha, but they weren’t functioning as rabbis when they did these things, so I don’t think that that could be offered as a valid rebuttal.

Likewise, we don’t learn what is right and what is wrong, how to live a proper, good life (using all those incredible inventions) from a bunch of scientists and engineers. When they are talking about such things, they are not functioning as scientists and engineers and their answers to those ethical questions are never all that good. Those questions are best answered by our rabbis and scholars and, the way I see it, they generally do a really good job of it. Our rabbis and scholars are the experts at that sort of thing because they’ve got the best textbook for that sort of thing.

I was on campus myself for quite a few years a while back, and I wish I could have made my career there. Some of us are just more enthusiastic (turned on?) about that kind of learning, that way of thinking, that way of finding out about G-d’s creations, than by the way Torah approaches the same thing. I don’t think a person who devotes himself to secular learning is any less valuable to have around that a talmud chacham. It should be obvious that we need both.

When you get sick, your doctor is a very important and valuable person in your life. When your car breaks down, your doctor is useless. It depends on what you need at the moment, what you are trying to accomplish, what you are trying to find out, doesn’t it?

So, let’s get honest already. The problem with a university education is not that it is inherently evil. It isn’t — it is inherently neutral. The problem is that our fear that someone may fall off the derech is so paralyzing that we will do and say anything against anything that is percieved as a threat. We even lie and distort the truth. The university isn’t trying to recruit us to apikorsus. It does’t care about such things. The problem is that we have been too closed-minded and fearful to actually look at the challenges coming from that direction and to honestly confront that challenge.

But to do that, you have to know the enemy, and we don’t. I know, there are supposed to be great rabbis who have had, they claim, a good secular education. Well, perhaps they sat on campus for a while, but from what I hear them say, I would not call their secular education good and they seem to be completely devoid of any real understanding of it.

Before you respond, give me a second to don my kevlar clothing…

What specific career or personal objective (other than graduation itself) brought you to the campus in the first place? Were you able to meet this objective while also doing your amazing kiruv work?

That means your advice may not work so well for us “ordinaries,” which even some BT’s are.

On the other hand, you do make the case for what extraordinary focus, effort and commitment can look like. It’s hard not to think that, notwithstanding the time lost to focusing only on learning, you are not better and stronger for this experience.