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	<title>Comments on: Lakewood vs. Lakewood</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/07/20/lakewood-vs-lakewood/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/07/20/lakewood-vs-lakewood/</link>
	<description>Baalei Teshuva / Baalei Teshuvah and Other Growth Oriented Jews</description>
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		<title>By: Adminstrator</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/07/20/lakewood-vs-lakewood/comment-page-1/#comment-367184</link>
		<dc:creator>Adminstrator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 03:24:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1259#comment-367184</guid>
		<description>tesyaa said, &quot;IMO, using a pseudonym that’s obviously a nickname or a made up name is OK; using a pseudonym that masquerades as a real name is not. It gives the impression of being a non-anonymous posting, when it’s not.&quot;

It&#039;s a good point and it&#039;s our fault for missing that.  We&#039;ll change it in the future to something that makes it clear that it is anonymous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tesyaa said, &#8220;IMO, using a pseudonym that’s obviously a nickname or a made up name is OK; using a pseudonym that masquerades as a real name is not. It gives the impression of being a non-anonymous posting, when it’s not.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a good point and it&#8217;s our fault for missing that.  We&#8217;ll change it in the future to something that makes it clear that it is anonymous.</p>
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		<title>By: CJ Srullowitz</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/07/20/lakewood-vs-lakewood/comment-page-1/#comment-367100</link>
		<dc:creator>CJ Srullowitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1259#comment-367100</guid>
		<description>Yaakov and PL,

I feel much, much better.

Thanks!

Also, I very much like &quot;cloying&quot; as a good translation for &quot;schmaltzy.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yaakov and PL,</p>
<p>I feel much, much better.</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Also, I very much like &#8220;cloying&#8221; as a good translation for &#8220;schmaltzy.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/07/20/lakewood-vs-lakewood/comment-page-1/#comment-366926</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1259#comment-366926</guid>
		<description>1.  It often happens that an article elicits comments that seem to veer off topic into related topics of high interest.  This is no insult to the writer whatsoever.

2.  To dream of spiritual self-betterment is characteristic of the Jewish people.  Sometimes, as this article says, we sell ourselves short by not reaching high enough.  Every day is a new opportunity to fix something (including our own awareness of HaShem&#039;s will) with the tools we have.  We need to understand and appreciate these tools, then put them to good use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1.  It often happens that an article elicits comments that seem to veer off topic into related topics of high interest.  This is no insult to the writer whatsoever.</p>
<p>2.  To dream of spiritual self-betterment is characteristic of the Jewish people.  Sometimes, as this article says, we sell ourselves short by not reaching high enough.  Every day is a new opportunity to fix something (including our own awareness of HaShem&#8217;s will) with the tools we have.  We need to understand and appreciate these tools, then put them to good use.</p>
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		<title>By: PL</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/07/20/lakewood-vs-lakewood/comment-page-1/#comment-366915</link>
		<dc:creator>PL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:43:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1259#comment-366915</guid>
		<description>Got it, Yaakov. Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Got it, Yaakov. Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Yaakov</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/07/20/lakewood-vs-lakewood/comment-page-1/#comment-366889</link>
		<dc:creator>Yaakov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:23:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1259#comment-366889</guid>
		<description>Hi PL,

I just meant that&quot;inspirational&quot; pieces like this often have a tendency to get treacly/cloyingly sweet.  Granted, literally, schmaltzy means &#039;fatty&#039; and not &#039;sweet&#039; and it is admittedly strange to use it almost as a synonym, but what what both terms really mean in this context is &quot;too much&quot; or &quot;over the top.&quot; CJ did an excellent job in avoiding this potential pitfall.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi PL,</p>
<p>I just meant that&#8221;inspirational&#8221; pieces like this often have a tendency to get treacly/cloyingly sweet.  Granted, literally, schmaltzy means &#8216;fatty&#8217; and not &#8217;sweet&#8217; and it is admittedly strange to use it almost as a synonym, but what what both terms really mean in this context is &#8220;too much&#8221; or &#8220;over the top.&#8221; CJ did an excellent job in avoiding this potential pitfall.</p>
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		<title>By: PL</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/07/20/lakewood-vs-lakewood/comment-page-1/#comment-366833</link>
		<dc:creator>PL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1259#comment-366833</guid>
		<description>I agree with yaakov, and didn&#039;t bother to post as it seemed the post was quickly hijacked (my mistake, I should have done so regardless).


But yaakov, now it&#039;s my turn:

&quot;unschmaltzy manner&quot;- what does this term mean (beyond literal translation:))?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with yaakov, and didn&#8217;t bother to post as it seemed the post was quickly hijacked (my mistake, I should have done so regardless).</p>
<p>But yaakov, now it&#8217;s my turn:</p>
<p>&#8220;unschmaltzy manner&#8221;- what does this term mean (beyond literal translation:))?</p>
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		<title>By: yaakov</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/07/20/lakewood-vs-lakewood/comment-page-1/#comment-366788</link>
		<dc:creator>yaakov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:35:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1259#comment-366788</guid>
		<description>I wish I&#039;d spoken up earlier, but CJ, I really loved this delightful piece which encourages people to hold on to meaningful dreams and goals against apparent odds, and I never got the idea or impression at all that it was any sort of pro-kollel piece. 

As with many pieces here this has served for a jumping off point for other issues -which is fine, but alas from the very start of the thread of comments people have ignored or somehow missed the pshat (simple), obvious inspiring message which you presented in a genuine, appealing,  and unschmaltzy manner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish I&#8217;d spoken up earlier, but CJ, I really loved this delightful piece which encourages people to hold on to meaningful dreams and goals against apparent odds, and I never got the idea or impression at all that it was any sort of pro-kollel piece. </p>
<p>As with many pieces here this has served for a jumping off point for other issues -which is fine, but alas from the very start of the thread of comments people have ignored or somehow missed the pshat (simple), obvious inspiring message which you presented in a genuine, appealing,  and unschmaltzy manner.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/07/20/lakewood-vs-lakewood/comment-page-1/#comment-366751</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1259#comment-366751</guid>
		<description>mem, I hope this helps:

BMG = Beth Medrash Govoha, which is the large, famous advanced yeshiva in Lakewood NJ.

Chiyuv to be kovea ittim = personal duty to schedule regular periods of Torah study

Kollel = post-graduate level of (mainly) Talmudic study.  The participants are generally married, and they generally receive stipends.  Some kollelim are founded to do community outreach in Jewish education, in addition to the study program.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mem, I hope this helps:</p>
<p>BMG = Beth Medrash Govoha, which is the large, famous advanced yeshiva in Lakewood NJ.</p>
<p>Chiyuv to be kovea ittim = personal duty to schedule regular periods of Torah study</p>
<p>Kollel = post-graduate level of (mainly) Talmudic study.  The participants are generally married, and they generally receive stipends.  Some kollelim are founded to do community outreach in Jewish education, in addition to the study program.</p>
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		<title>By: mem</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/07/20/lakewood-vs-lakewood/comment-page-1/#comment-366683</link>
		<dc:creator>mem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 04:32:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1259#comment-366683</guid>
		<description>Once again I plead for clarity in translating the sometimes impossible to understand terms used in this blog.
ie
What is the meaning of:
&quot;BMG&quot;
halachic chiyuv to be kovea ittim?
kollel
I try to read and understand every post, but sometimes I never know if a word is Hebrew, Yiddish or simply slang. Putting the English meaning in parenthesis seems so easy, so please help me out here.
And thank you Ron Coleman for the link to &quot;asara batlanim.&quot;  You can&#039;t imagine how helpful and enlightening such links are to a more or less beginner like myself. 
thanks all,
mem</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again I plead for clarity in translating the sometimes impossible to understand terms used in this blog.<br />
ie<br />
What is the meaning of:<br />
&#8220;BMG&#8221;<br />
halachic chiyuv to be kovea ittim?<br />
kollel<br />
I try to read and understand every post, but sometimes I never know if a word is Hebrew, Yiddish or simply slang. Putting the English meaning in parenthesis seems so easy, so please help me out here.<br />
And thank you Ron Coleman for the link to &#8220;asara batlanim.&#8221;  You can&#8217;t imagine how helpful and enlightening such links are to a more or less beginner like myself.<br />
thanks all,<br />
mem</p>
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		<title>By: CJ Srullowitz</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/07/20/lakewood-vs-lakewood/comment-page-1/#comment-366680</link>
		<dc:creator>CJ Srullowitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 04:02:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1259#comment-366680</guid>
		<description>As the author, I suppose I can only blame myself. Nonetheless, I am shocked and dismayed over the misconceptions drawn from this post - especially after my earlier attempt to clarify.

So let me be blunt.

I did not intend for this post to be seen as a pro-kollel pitch. The discussion I had at the ball game and the lessons learned were intended for working people, like myself.

I work full-time. Actually, more than full time,  these days. I never saw anything in this post (except for the unfortunate title) as indicating a push for full-time learning. My comment “It’s about promoting spiritual achievement in our learning and our observance of mitzvos. It’s about making sacrifices and dreaming big.” is not an advertisement for kollel. It is a comment aimed at every single Jew to maximize his or her potential in their personal Avodas Hashem.

As it happens, I do support the concept of kollel and have many family members in kollelim. Nonetheless, I personally agree with many of the above comments as to the limits of a kollel &quot;system&quot; and the unfortunate fallout that follows when those limits are not observed.

Perhaps one day I will write about it. But this is not that essay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As the author, I suppose I can only blame myself. Nonetheless, I am shocked and dismayed over the misconceptions drawn from this post &#8211; especially after my earlier attempt to clarify.</p>
<p>So let me be blunt.</p>
<p>I did not intend for this post to be seen as a pro-kollel pitch. The discussion I had at the ball game and the lessons learned were intended for working people, like myself.</p>
<p>I work full-time. Actually, more than full time,  these days. I never saw anything in this post (except for the unfortunate title) as indicating a push for full-time learning. My comment “It’s about promoting spiritual achievement in our learning and our observance of mitzvos. It’s about making sacrifices and dreaming big.” is not an advertisement for kollel. It is a comment aimed at every single Jew to maximize his or her potential in their personal Avodas Hashem.</p>
<p>As it happens, I do support the concept of kollel and have many family members in kollelim. Nonetheless, I personally agree with many of the above comments as to the limits of a kollel &#8220;system&#8221; and the unfortunate fallout that follows when those limits are not observed.</p>
<p>Perhaps one day I will write about it. But this is not that essay.</p>
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		<title>By: tesyaa</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/07/20/lakewood-vs-lakewood/comment-page-1/#comment-366664</link>
		<dc:creator>tesyaa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 01:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1259#comment-366664</guid>
		<description>Out of curiousity: is CJ Srullowitz a pseudonym?  Most Wall Streeters (as you say you are) and lawyers have LinkedIn or other pages in response to a Google search.  There&#039;s no Srullowitz resulting from a Google search other than Jewish blog posts and comments.  IMO, using a pseudonym that&#039;s obviously a nickname or a made up name is OK; using a pseudonym that masquerades as a real name is not.  It gives the impression of being a non-anonymous posting, when it&#039;s not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Out of curiousity: is CJ Srullowitz a pseudonym?  Most Wall Streeters (as you say you are) and lawyers have LinkedIn or other pages in response to a Google search.  There&#8217;s no Srullowitz resulting from a Google search other than Jewish blog posts and comments.  IMO, using a pseudonym that&#8217;s obviously a nickname or a made up name is OK; using a pseudonym that masquerades as a real name is not.  It gives the impression of being a non-anonymous posting, when it&#8217;s not.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/07/20/lakewood-vs-lakewood/comment-page-1/#comment-366566</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1259#comment-366566</guid>
		<description>FYI, our younger son is in Kollel at BMG and is doing well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FYI, our younger son is in Kollel at BMG and is doing well.</p>
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		<title>By: YMG</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/07/20/lakewood-vs-lakewood/comment-page-1/#comment-366559</link>
		<dc:creator>YMG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1259#comment-366559</guid>
		<description>Bob-

I couldnt agree with you more about the need for candid guidance counseling which keeps individaul interests qualities and aptitudes in mind.

I also heartily agree with you that history has been highjacked today and distorted in order to advance social agendas. Those with scanty historical knowledge of what it was really like in the &quot;heim&quot; (aka old country) get hood-winked everyday</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob-</p>
<p>I couldnt agree with you more about the need for candid guidance counseling which keeps individaul interests qualities and aptitudes in mind.</p>
<p>I also heartily agree with you that history has been highjacked today and distorted in order to advance social agendas. Those with scanty historical knowledge of what it was really like in the &#8220;heim&#8221; (aka old country) get hood-winked everyday</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/07/20/lakewood-vs-lakewood/comment-page-1/#comment-366521</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:51:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1259#comment-366521</guid>
		<description>The yeshivos at the mesivta and beis medrash levels need to provide candid guidance counseling to their students, keeping their students&#039; interests, qualities, and aptitudes in mind.  The idea that every student&#039;s career path should be the same, with no allowances for individual differences, is a recent invention and not traditional whatsoever.  It&#039;s remarkable how many mores of today&#039;s Orthodox society did not exist in the &quot;old country&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The yeshivos at the mesivta and beis medrash levels need to provide candid guidance counseling to their students, keeping their students&#8217; interests, qualities, and aptitudes in mind.  The idea that every student&#8217;s career path should be the same, with no allowances for individual differences, is a recent invention and not traditional whatsoever.  It&#8217;s remarkable how many mores of today&#8217;s Orthodox society did not exist in the &#8220;old country&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: YMG</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/07/20/lakewood-vs-lakewood/comment-page-1/#comment-366470</link>
		<dc:creator>YMG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:09:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1259#comment-366470</guid>
		<description>A decade ago I lived in Lakewood. Bli ayin hara, I have sons who learn with joy, hasmada, fulfillment and success full time in BMG/Lakewood. I am a frequent visitor to Lakewood.

I will defer to the author CJ Srullowitz as to the stated purpose of his essay, quote &quot;It’s about promoting spiritual achievement in our learning and our observance of mitzvos. It’s about making sacrifices and dreaming big.&quot; 

The human cost of this well intended but  overly idealistic and therefore misplaced approach is very high. And, I am not just referring to Lakewood Kollel wives who may be forced out of financial necessity to juggle 2 or 3 jobs on top of trying to raise children and keep a household functioning, or to the children  who may be emotional orphans with two living parents. 

I am also speaking about the flotsam and jetsam of Kollel men floating around Lakewood who stay in leaning because of frum society&#039;s expectations/demands, but who have no chiyus/joy in their learning and who are confronted daily with their depressing lack of talent, success/achievement in their learning. 

These men have been socially acculturated through the yeshiva school system to believe that anyone not learning full time is a loser and a  waste of space, and to therefore &quot;dream big&quot;.

Rarely is the message conveyed in the yeshiva school system that G-d assigned each one of us to a unique role in the orchestra of Kiddush H-shem, and that it is part of His grand design  for some men to honor Him by playing another  instrument in addition to learning Torah.

Yes,  every male has a halachic chiyuv to be kovea ittim. But, not every product of the yeshiva school system is cut out for full time Torah learning, nor should full time Torah learning be frum society&#039;s articulated goal for every male. 

I think the following story about the Satmar Rov (R. Joel Teitlebaum ztl 1887-1979) makes my point. After the war many survivors did nothing other than learn full time. The Satmar Beis Medrash was bursting at the seams until the day Rebbeinu Yoel ztl with his penetrating gaze apprised the assembled  olam and began pointing &quot;You, you, and you! Out of the Beis Medrash and get to work!&quot;. Those who left became the backbone of the Satmar community, the businessmen and askanim that built Satmar in America. Their talents and abilities would never have been given the opportunity to be of service to Klal Yisroel had they stayed in the Beis Medrash learning Torah full time. 

CJ Srullowitz advocates for an approach that has already been implemented in  Yeshivishe society for decades: Individual talents and abilities are  systematically ignored and routinely sacrificed for the &quot;big dream&quot; of  full time Torah learning as an occupation. The human cost of this misplaced idealism is often tragic to behold in Lakewood. 
 
When big dreams of spiritual achievement in learning crash upon the shoals of  the lack of ability for full time Torah learning the high cost of dreaming too big is depression and dysfunction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A decade ago I lived in Lakewood. Bli ayin hara, I have sons who learn with joy, hasmada, fulfillment and success full time in BMG/Lakewood. I am a frequent visitor to Lakewood.</p>
<p>I will defer to the author CJ Srullowitz as to the stated purpose of his essay, quote &#8220;It’s about promoting spiritual achievement in our learning and our observance of mitzvos. It’s about making sacrifices and dreaming big.&#8221; </p>
<p>The human cost of this well intended but  overly idealistic and therefore misplaced approach is very high. And, I am not just referring to Lakewood Kollel wives who may be forced out of financial necessity to juggle 2 or 3 jobs on top of trying to raise children and keep a household functioning, or to the children  who may be emotional orphans with two living parents. </p>
<p>I am also speaking about the flotsam and jetsam of Kollel men floating around Lakewood who stay in leaning because of frum society&#8217;s expectations/demands, but who have no chiyus/joy in their learning and who are confronted daily with their depressing lack of talent, success/achievement in their learning. </p>
<p>These men have been socially acculturated through the yeshiva school system to believe that anyone not learning full time is a loser and a  waste of space, and to therefore &#8220;dream big&#8221;.</p>
<p>Rarely is the message conveyed in the yeshiva school system that G-d assigned each one of us to a unique role in the orchestra of Kiddush H-shem, and that it is part of His grand design  for some men to honor Him by playing another  instrument in addition to learning Torah.</p>
<p>Yes,  every male has a halachic chiyuv to be kovea ittim. But, not every product of the yeshiva school system is cut out for full time Torah learning, nor should full time Torah learning be frum society&#8217;s articulated goal for every male. </p>
<p>I think the following story about the Satmar Rov (R. Joel Teitlebaum ztl 1887-1979) makes my point. After the war many survivors did nothing other than learn full time. The Satmar Beis Medrash was bursting at the seams until the day Rebbeinu Yoel ztl with his penetrating gaze apprised the assembled  olam and began pointing &#8220;You, you, and you! Out of the Beis Medrash and get to work!&#8221;. Those who left became the backbone of the Satmar community, the businessmen and askanim that built Satmar in America. Their talents and abilities would never have been given the opportunity to be of service to Klal Yisroel had they stayed in the Beis Medrash learning Torah full time. </p>
<p>CJ Srullowitz advocates for an approach that has already been implemented in  Yeshivishe society for decades: Individual talents and abilities are  systematically ignored and routinely sacrificed for the &#8220;big dream&#8221; of  full time Torah learning as an occupation. The human cost of this misplaced idealism is often tragic to behold in Lakewood. </p>
<p>When big dreams of spiritual achievement in learning crash upon the shoals of  the lack of ability for full time Torah learning the high cost of dreaming too big is depression and dysfunction.</p>
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