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	<title>Comments on: What is Torah Judaism? (in 500 words or less) &#8211; Volume #3</title>
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	<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/03/16/what-is-torah-judaism-in-500-words-or-less-volume-3/</link>
	<description>Baalei Teshuva / Baalei Teshuvah and Other Growth Oriented Jews</description>
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		<title>By: Ron Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/03/16/what-is-torah-judaism-in-500-words-or-less-volume-3/comment-page-1/#comment-326095</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Mar 2009 00:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1190#comment-326095</guid>
		<description>Steve, part of the reason the challenge of defining Judaism in 500 words or less, and not five words or less, is that the endeavor is entirely different from how you seem to conceive it.  The idea is to explicate, not to obscure.

Hence, the problem with your formulation is twofold.  Not even counting the other fold, namely the use of the term &quot;rabbinics&quot; which has no meaning to the vast majority of people and almost no one outside the world of YU-style scholarship.  Including me.

One issue I have is that it could be claimed, and is, that every &quot;branch&quot; of Judaism, and pretty much every other religion, is also based on some equivalent of -- let me be the first here, and ironically you missed this opportunity -- TAGC.  There is very little unique about saying one&#039;s religion is based on Kindness, Devotion and Scripture.

You see I have altered the order, because it brings me to the second point.  The words &quot;Torah&quot; and &quot;Avodah&quot; are amenable to limitless definitions.  Your formulation addresses neither what they might mean or how they are related.  And when I suggested before that it reveals less than it obscures, I wasn&#039;t merely being snippy about the dismissive nature of your initial comment.  Someone given this definition might only not find it illuminating, but could be downright resentful when they realized the full scope of moral, practical and ritual commitment buried in each of those three loaded words.

Indeed, your suggestion that the essential experience of chesed is Shabbos is hashkofically fascinating, but the novelty of it -- to me -- also seems to support my point.  I would think of Shabbos in terms of Avodah first, and perhaps Torah second, and Chesed -- well, the suggestion is compelling, with the idea, I guess, of Shabbos not only constituting Chesed for Shabbos guests but also a Chesed that Hashem did for &lt;i&gt;klal yisroel&lt;/i&gt;.  But while it&#039;s philosophically fascinating to contemplate this, it seems way off track from the concept of the challenge of &quot;explaining Torah Judaism&quot; and not necessarily all that related to conceptually to TAGC except on a very sophisticated philosophical level.

On the other hand, if you did not mean this at all, but only meant the narrower idea of &quot;how nice it is to experience Shabbos and be the recipient of Chesed,&quot; fine, but, again, the concept as I understood it was not to say, &quot;Instead of defining Torah Judaism in 500 words or less, here&#039;s some gefilte fish,&quot; but to make an attempt to define Torah Judaism in 500 words or less.

More:  I would expect you, in particular, considering your cerebral and intellectual approach to things, to do better than throw up your hands and say, &quot;No sense in writing it; if you don&#039;t hear the zemiros and smell the cholent, you&#039;ll never get it.&quot;  What happened to our Litvak?!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, part of the reason the challenge of defining Judaism in 500 words or less, and not five words or less, is that the endeavor is entirely different from how you seem to conceive it.  The idea is to explicate, not to obscure.</p>
<p>Hence, the problem with your formulation is twofold.  Not even counting the other fold, namely the use of the term &#8220;rabbinics&#8221; which has no meaning to the vast majority of people and almost no one outside the world of YU-style scholarship.  Including me.</p>
<p>One issue I have is that it could be claimed, and is, that every &#8220;branch&#8221; of Judaism, and pretty much every other religion, is also based on some equivalent of &#8212; let me be the first here, and ironically you missed this opportunity &#8212; TAGC.  There is very little unique about saying one&#8217;s religion is based on Kindness, Devotion and Scripture.</p>
<p>You see I have altered the order, because it brings me to the second point.  The words &#8220;Torah&#8221; and &#8220;Avodah&#8221; are amenable to limitless definitions.  Your formulation addresses neither what they might mean or how they are related.  And when I suggested before that it reveals less than it obscures, I wasn&#8217;t merely being snippy about the dismissive nature of your initial comment.  Someone given this definition might only not find it illuminating, but could be downright resentful when they realized the full scope of moral, practical and ritual commitment buried in each of those three loaded words.</p>
<p>Indeed, your suggestion that the essential experience of chesed is Shabbos is hashkofically fascinating, but the novelty of it &#8212; to me &#8212; also seems to support my point.  I would think of Shabbos in terms of Avodah first, and perhaps Torah second, and Chesed &#8212; well, the suggestion is compelling, with the idea, I guess, of Shabbos not only constituting Chesed for Shabbos guests but also a Chesed that Hashem did for <i>klal yisroel</i>.  But while it&#8217;s philosophically fascinating to contemplate this, it seems way off track from the concept of the challenge of &#8220;explaining Torah Judaism&#8221; and not necessarily all that related to conceptually to TAGC except on a very sophisticated philosophical level.</p>
<p>On the other hand, if you did not mean this at all, but only meant the narrower idea of &#8220;how nice it is to experience Shabbos and be the recipient of Chesed,&#8221; fine, but, again, the concept as I understood it was not to say, &#8220;Instead of defining Torah Judaism in 500 words or less, here&#8217;s some gefilte fish,&#8221; but to make an attempt to define Torah Judaism in 500 words or less.</p>
<p>More:  I would expect you, in particular, considering your cerebral and intellectual approach to things, to do better than throw up your hands and say, &#8220;No sense in writing it; if you don&#8217;t hear the zemiros and smell the cholent, you&#8217;ll never get it.&#8221;  What happened to our Litvak?!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Brizel</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/03/16/what-is-torah-judaism-in-500-words-or-less-volume-3/comment-page-1/#comment-325225</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Brizel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1190#comment-325225</guid>
		<description>Let me follow up to that response. A &quot;nearly assimilated college student&quot; may have never experienced Shabbos, Tefilah or any of the too many to enumerate examples of Chesed that are unique to our communities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me follow up to that response. A &#8220;nearly assimilated college student&#8221; may have never experienced Shabbos, Tefilah or any of the too many to enumerate examples of Chesed that are unique to our communities.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Brizel</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/03/16/what-is-torah-judaism-in-500-words-or-less-volume-3/comment-page-1/#comment-325223</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Brizel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1190#comment-325223</guid>
		<description>Ron Coleman-I firmly believe that Torah, Avodah and Gmilus Chasadim are the only keys to defining Judaism and that the rest is simply supplementary rabbinics of the hashkafic camp within the Mesorah that one is attracted to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron Coleman-I firmly believe that Torah, Avodah and Gmilus Chasadim are the only keys to defining Judaism and that the rest is simply supplementary rabbinics of the hashkafic camp within the Mesorah that one is attracted to.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Frankel</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/03/16/what-is-torah-judaism-in-500-words-or-less-volume-3/comment-page-1/#comment-325160</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Frankel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:42:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1190#comment-325160</guid>
		<description>Bob, I don&#039;t think it&#039;s obvious because people chose to focus on different things and if you don&#039;t have any Loshon Hora &amp; Benefit of the Doubt training, there is a tendency to focus on the negative. 

So even if the conduct is generally above the rest, which I think it is, the negative sticks out like a sore thumb.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s obvious because people chose to focus on different things and if you don&#8217;t have any Loshon Hora &#038; Benefit of the Doubt training, there is a tendency to focus on the negative. </p>
<p>So even if the conduct is generally above the rest, which I think it is, the negative sticks out like a sore thumb.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/03/16/what-is-torah-judaism-in-500-words-or-less-volume-3/comment-page-1/#comment-325156</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:04:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1190#comment-325156</guid>
		<description>Despite the above, Mark, shouldn&#039;t it at least be obvious to outsiders that our general conduct is a cut above the rest?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Despite the above, Mark, shouldn&#8217;t it at least be obvious to outsiders that our general conduct is a cut above the rest?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Frankel</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/03/16/what-is-torah-judaism-in-500-words-or-less-volume-3/comment-page-1/#comment-325155</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Frankel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:53:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1190#comment-325155</guid>
		<description>The answer to the question &quot;why not?&quot; is that there is a difference between the instructions and the results produced by those who follow them. 

The instructions are fine, but we are not following them properly. 

The Agaddah and the prayers of Tisha B&#039;av (and other places) gives us some reasons why we don&#039;t follow them properly:

1) Persecution by the nations leading to the need to defend ourselves
2) The fact that we are created as part physical beings
3) Not having the intense experience of Hashem&#039;s presence as we did prior to the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The answer to the question &#8220;why not?&#8221; is that there is a difference between the instructions and the results produced by those who follow them. </p>
<p>The instructions are fine, but we are not following them properly. </p>
<p>The Agaddah and the prayers of Tisha B&#8217;av (and other places) gives us some reasons why we don&#8217;t follow them properly:</p>
<p>1) Persecution by the nations leading to the need to defend ourselves<br />
2) The fact that we are created as part physical beings<br />
3) Not having the intense experience of Hashem&#8217;s presence as we did prior to the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/03/16/what-is-torah-judaism-in-500-words-or-less-volume-3/comment-page-1/#comment-325121</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:38:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1190#comment-325121</guid>
		<description>I agree, Mark.  However, to constantly remind people not to grade our religion based on our actual behavior begs the question of &quot;why not?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, Mark.  However, to constantly remind people not to grade our religion based on our actual behavior begs the question of &#8220;why not?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Frankel</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/03/16/what-is-torah-judaism-in-500-words-or-less-volume-3/comment-page-1/#comment-325119</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Frankel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1190#comment-325119</guid>
		<description>Bob

Perhaps we can reconcile as follows:

1) If we were living a proper Torah life people would sit up and take notice and want to emulate it. That&#039;s clear from the Gemora and it&#039;s where we need to go with our Judaism. Perhaps we as BTs have more of responsibility in this area.

2) Just because a given person or even group of Observant Jews is not living at this exalted level does not mean that the Torah itself is not capable of raising a person to that level. 

So perhaps the lesson is one we need to learn rather than teach. We need to work a lot harder on *our* Judaism and raise ourselves to at least the level that people will consider the possibility that a Torah life style leads to a more exalted person.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob</p>
<p>Perhaps we can reconcile as follows:</p>
<p>1) If we were living a proper Torah life people would sit up and take notice and want to emulate it. That&#8217;s clear from the Gemora and it&#8217;s where we need to go with our Judaism. Perhaps we as BTs have more of responsibility in this area.</p>
<p>2) Just because a given person or even group of Observant Jews is not living at this exalted level does not mean that the Torah itself is not capable of raising a person to that level. </p>
<p>So perhaps the lesson is one we need to learn rather than teach. We need to work a lot harder on *our* Judaism and raise ourselves to at least the level that people will consider the possibility that a Torah life style leads to a more exalted person.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/03/16/what-is-torah-judaism-in-500-words-or-less-volume-3/comment-page-1/#comment-325076</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 11:53:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1190#comment-325076</guid>
		<description>Reading Steve&#039;s Comment #12.  I hear a lot of that, but isn&#039;t an outside observer of the Orthodox scene supposed to see something more exalted than general society?  If it&#039;s not apparent, hasn&#039;t something gone wrong with the application of Torah values to everyday life, the very thing we take pride in?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reading Steve&#8217;s Comment #12.  I hear a lot of that, but isn&#8217;t an outside observer of the Orthodox scene supposed to see something more exalted than general society?  If it&#8217;s not apparent, hasn&#8217;t something gone wrong with the application of Torah values to everyday life, the very thing we take pride in?</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/03/16/what-is-torah-judaism-in-500-words-or-less-volume-3/comment-page-1/#comment-324982</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 03:26:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1190#comment-324982</guid>
		<description>Steve, do you think your precise and accurate &quot;referral&quot; would be particularly compelling, inspiring or illuminating to a nearly assimilated college junior who is somehow compelled to ask the question, &quot;What is Torah Judaism&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, do you think your precise and accurate &#8220;referral&#8221; would be particularly compelling, inspiring or illuminating to a nearly assimilated college junior who is somehow compelled to ask the question, &#8220;What is Torah Judaism&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Brizel</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/03/16/what-is-torah-judaism-in-500-words-or-less-volume-3/comment-page-1/#comment-324903</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Brizel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1190#comment-324903</guid>
		<description>As far as DK&#039;s comments are concerned, R B Wein and many others have stated that Judaism should never be confused with or judged by those who claim to be its practitioners.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as DK&#8217;s comments are concerned, R B Wein and many others have stated that Judaism should never be confused with or judged by those who claim to be its practitioners.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Brizel</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/03/16/what-is-torah-judaism-in-500-words-or-less-volume-3/comment-page-1/#comment-324902</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Brizel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:14:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1190#comment-324902</guid>
		<description>I would simply refer anyone to the Mishnah in Avos that sets forth Torah, Avodah and Gmilus Chasadim as the key elements and state that hashkafic differences are essentially supplementary rabbinics that fade in and out as one hashkafa fades in and out as it lacks a subsequent leader to compell future aderents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would simply refer anyone to the Mishnah in Avos that sets forth Torah, Avodah and Gmilus Chasadim as the key elements and state that hashkafic differences are essentially supplementary rabbinics that fade in and out as one hashkafa fades in and out as it lacks a subsequent leader to compell future aderents.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/03/16/what-is-torah-judaism-in-500-words-or-less-volume-3/comment-page-1/#comment-324447</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:56:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1190#comment-324447</guid>
		<description>Ron (13:52):

With truth serum, DK&#039;s reply might come out like this:

1.  He does not accept any religious approach, halachic or otherwise.  He is anti-teshuvah in the most basic way.
2.  He typically does not want to say that in so many words, so he takes comfort in going after what he perceives as a weak link, namely, right-wing Orthodoxy.  Any reported shortcoming of any member or subgroup of that group is made out to be representative of the whole.
3.  Now and then, he&#039;ll hold up a Modern Orthodox figure here as a role model, but personally would never follow him, either</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron (13:52):</p>
<p>With truth serum, DK&#8217;s reply might come out like this:</p>
<p>1.  He does not accept any religious approach, halachic or otherwise.  He is anti-teshuvah in the most basic way.<br />
2.  He typically does not want to say that in so many words, so he takes comfort in going after what he perceives as a weak link, namely, right-wing Orthodoxy.  Any reported shortcoming of any member or subgroup of that group is made out to be representative of the whole.<br />
3.  Now and then, he&#8217;ll hold up a Modern Orthodox figure here as a role model, but personally would never follow him, either</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/03/16/what-is-torah-judaism-in-500-words-or-less-volume-3/comment-page-1/#comment-324440</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 17:52:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1190#comment-324440</guid>
		<description>DK, is there an argument or thesis in your comment?  If so, won&#039;t you tease it out for us?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DK, is there an argument or thesis in your comment?  If so, won&#8217;t you tease it out for us?</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/03/16/what-is-torah-judaism-in-500-words-or-less-volume-3/comment-page-1/#comment-324040</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:52:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1190#comment-324040</guid>
		<description>Headline skimming has not yet given DK any insight into the heart and soul of the Jewish nation, and never will.  Will he now investigate this civilization as a scholar might?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Headline skimming has not yet given DK any insight into the heart and soul of the Jewish nation, and never will.  Will he now investigate this civilization as a scholar might?</p>
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