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	<title>Comments on: Costs of Orthodox Jewish Life Survey</title>
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	<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/02/12/costs-of-orthodox-jewish-life-survey/</link>
	<description>Baalei Teshuva / Baalei Teshuvah and Other Growth Oriented Jews</description>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/02/12/costs-of-orthodox-jewish-life-survey/comment-page-1/#comment-316902</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:23:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1172#comment-316902</guid>
		<description>Charnie, I have seen synthetic wigs in use.  In any case, the amount to spend on wigs vs. other needs is a personal economic as well as aesthetic decision.  To some people on tight budgets, alternative ways of spending the money have more appeal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charnie, I have seen synthetic wigs in use.  In any case, the amount to spend on wigs vs. other needs is a personal economic as well as aesthetic decision.  To some people on tight budgets, alternative ways of spending the money have more appeal.</p>
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		<title>By: LC</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/02/12/costs-of-orthodox-jewish-life-survey/comment-page-1/#comment-316890</link>
		<dc:creator>LC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 19:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1172#comment-316890</guid>
		<description>Just one dumb question - why is not eating gebrochts supposed to be a money saver?

Most pre-packaged gebrochts items I&#039;ve come across are high priced as all other packaged and sold for Passover foods.  Why not just advocate eating &#039;real&#039; foods - vegetables, eggs, fruits, chicken and/or meat (not cheap, but yom tov-dik).  Potatoes, sweet potatos, turnips, carrots, cabbage, etc. are all easily accessible (and starchy) and not gebrochts.

The main draw I see to gebrochts for most people is the high priced &quot;Passover noodles&quot;, Passover desserts, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just one dumb question &#8211; why is not eating gebrochts supposed to be a money saver?</p>
<p>Most pre-packaged gebrochts items I&#8217;ve come across are high priced as all other packaged and sold for Passover foods.  Why not just advocate eating &#8216;real&#8217; foods &#8211; vegetables, eggs, fruits, chicken and/or meat (not cheap, but yom tov-dik).  Potatoes, sweet potatos, turnips, carrots, cabbage, etc. are all easily accessible (and starchy) and not gebrochts.</p>
<p>The main draw I see to gebrochts for most people is the high priced &#8220;Passover noodles&#8221;, Passover desserts, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Charnie</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/02/12/costs-of-orthodox-jewish-life-survey/comment-page-1/#comment-316871</link>
		<dc:creator>Charnie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1172#comment-316871</guid>
		<description>Bob, with all due respect, the very inexpensive wigs don&#039;t look anywhere near as good in person as they do in these photos.  For those of us who work in the non-Jewish environment, it makes life a little more pleasant to wear a sheitel as opposed to a hat, snood, tichel or any other head covering.  We stand out in enough ways already (such as not joining coworkers for lunch, dressing differently, avoiding a lot of office shmoozing).

However, a human hair out of the box can be had for well under $1,000.  When I was single I used to pay (and this was over 22 years ago) about $65 a month for hairstyling and color, which would be about $780 per year anyway, and I know that those prices have gone up.

Even if I weren&#039;t working in an office, I&#039;d probably still go with the wig, because I&#039;m possibly the only woman on earth who finds a well-fitted wig more comfortable then a hat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob, with all due respect, the very inexpensive wigs don&#8217;t look anywhere near as good in person as they do in these photos.  For those of us who work in the non-Jewish environment, it makes life a little more pleasant to wear a sheitel as opposed to a hat, snood, tichel or any other head covering.  We stand out in enough ways already (such as not joining coworkers for lunch, dressing differently, avoiding a lot of office shmoozing).</p>
<p>However, a human hair out of the box can be had for well under $1,000.  When I was single I used to pay (and this was over 22 years ago) about $65 a month for hairstyling and color, which would be about $780 per year anyway, and I know that those prices have gone up.</p>
<p>Even if I weren&#8217;t working in an office, I&#8217;d probably still go with the wig, because I&#8217;m possibly the only woman on earth who finds a well-fitted wig more comfortable then a hat.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/02/12/costs-of-orthodox-jewish-life-survey/comment-page-1/#comment-316792</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 21:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1172#comment-316792</guid>
		<description>For those who prefer wigs to other head coverings, there is no need to spend $2000/wig.  The non-picky can buy a perfectly presentable synthetic wig for $100 or less.

See, for example, http://www.paulayoung.com
and http://thewigcompany.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those who prefer wigs to other head coverings, there is no need to spend $2000/wig.  The non-picky can buy a perfectly presentable synthetic wig for $100 or less.</p>
<p>See, for example, <a href="http://www.paulayoung.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.paulayoung.com</a><br />
and <a href="http://thewigcompany.com" rel="nofollow">http://thewigcompany.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: FFB</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/02/12/costs-of-orthodox-jewish-life-survey/comment-page-1/#comment-316731</link>
		<dc:creator>FFB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 04:55:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1172#comment-316731</guid>
		<description>Way to go, Nathan!

No rabbi teaches that a wig is as kosher as a scarf and many paskened that it&#039;s assur. Now that would be a great start, beruchnius ubegashmius.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Way to go, Nathan!</p>
<p>No rabbi teaches that a wig is as kosher as a scarf and many paskened that it&#8217;s assur. Now that would be a great start, beruchnius ubegashmius.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/02/12/costs-of-orthodox-jewish-life-survey/comment-page-1/#comment-316729</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 04:40:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1172#comment-316729</guid>
		<description>Wigs became popular with Orthodox married women in the 1920s and they were opposed by Rabbis.  Even today, there are Rabbis who teach that a $10 scarf is Halachically preferable to a $2,500 wig.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wigs became popular with Orthodox married women in the 1920s and they were opposed by Rabbis.  Even today, there are Rabbis who teach that a $10 scarf is Halachically preferable to a $2,500 wig.</p>
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		<title>By: FFB</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/02/12/costs-of-orthodox-jewish-life-survey/comment-page-1/#comment-316718</link>
		<dc:creator>FFB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 01:40:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1172#comment-316718</guid>
		<description>Reminds me the one about the sinking ship where everyone threw first thing their taleisim overboard. Why don&#039;t we start with secular expenses like cars, furniture, extravagant simchas etc.?

BTW it&#039;s &quot;vort&quot;, meaning &quot;word&quot;, i.e. promise - the promise chassan-kallah give each other to marry each other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reminds me the one about the sinking ship where everyone threw first thing their taleisim overboard. Why don&#8217;t we start with secular expenses like cars, furniture, extravagant simchas etc.?</p>
<p>BTW it&#8217;s &#8220;vort&#8221;, meaning &#8220;word&#8221;, i.e. promise &#8211; the promise chassan-kallah give each other to marry each other.</p>
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		<title>By: Charnie</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/02/12/costs-of-orthodox-jewish-life-survey/comment-page-1/#comment-316664</link>
		<dc:creator>Charnie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Feb 2009 18:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1172#comment-316664</guid>
		<description>Continuing on this same thought, the one thing you mention, Nathan, that could make a dent in our expenses is eliminating a D&#039;vort, because that has become endemic with the &quot;keeping up with the Goldsteins&quot; attitude that has sunk many into debt, even before the current financial crisis.  Once we can cease making D&#039;vorts, we can reexamine why we need to do everything that our neighbors do, regardless of whether or not it is necessary and/or affordable from the cars we drive, to the houses we remodel, to vacations, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Continuing on this same thought, the one thing you mention, Nathan, that could make a dent in our expenses is eliminating a D&#8217;vort, because that has become endemic with the &#8220;keeping up with the Goldsteins&#8221; attitude that has sunk many into debt, even before the current financial crisis.  Once we can cease making D&#8217;vorts, we can reexamine why we need to do everything that our neighbors do, regardless of whether or not it is necessary and/or affordable from the cars we drive, to the houses we remodel, to vacations, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Orthonomics</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/02/12/costs-of-orthodox-jewish-life-survey/comment-page-1/#comment-316606</link>
		<dc:creator>Orthonomics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Feb 2009 05:36:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1172#comment-316606</guid>
		<description>Nathan, 
Full disclosure: no one in my home uses a chicken for kapparot, wears Rabbeinu Tam tefillin, buys a chicken for kapparot, or attends a Friday night minyan where kiddush is made (incidentally, I one purpose of this minhag was economic in nature as few could afford their own kiddush).  We also eat gebrocks on Pesach an (!) will eat some tyes of kitniyot.  And, we only buy one arba minim.  

And, most of the Orthodox community also does not use a chicken for kapparot, wear Rabbeinu Tam tefillin, or avoid gebrochts.  

We have major economic problems in the Orthodox community from chronic underemployment to the recent layoffs of many members of the community that were earning enviable salaries, to lack of savings both personal and communal, to high debt loads.  We need to cut pennies, we need to cut dollars, we need to cut thousands of dollars.  

But, cutting a second day of Yom Tov simply isn&#039;t possible and deflects from real expenses that could be cut and controlled.  And I think in this worsening economy, whether people/organizations like it or not, they will have to face the music and start cutting things that can actually be cut.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nathan,<br />
Full disclosure: no one in my home uses a chicken for kapparot, wears Rabbeinu Tam tefillin, buys a chicken for kapparot, or attends a Friday night minyan where kiddush is made (incidentally, I one purpose of this minhag was economic in nature as few could afford their own kiddush).  We also eat gebrocks on Pesach an (!) will eat some tyes of kitniyot.  And, we only buy one arba minim.  </p>
<p>And, most of the Orthodox community also does not use a chicken for kapparot, wear Rabbeinu Tam tefillin, or avoid gebrochts.  </p>
<p>We have major economic problems in the Orthodox community from chronic underemployment to the recent layoffs of many members of the community that were earning enviable salaries, to lack of savings both personal and communal, to high debt loads.  We need to cut pennies, we need to cut dollars, we need to cut thousands of dollars.  </p>
<p>But, cutting a second day of Yom Tov simply isn&#8217;t possible and deflects from real expenses that could be cut and controlled.  And I think in this worsening economy, whether people/organizations like it or not, they will have to face the music and start cutting things that can actually be cut.</p>
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		<title>By: David Linn</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/02/12/costs-of-orthodox-jewish-life-survey/comment-page-1/#comment-316488</link>
		<dc:creator>David Linn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 21:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1172#comment-316488</guid>
		<description>Nathan,

The post was about economics, does the kiddush issue even approach making a dent in that regard?

And not to belabor the point, maybe too late for that, but kiddush bemakom seudah is a derabbanon, kiddush Friday night is, according to almost everyone, a deorisa. Some poskim even favor this minhag since kiddush is meant to be made as close to the entrance of shabbos as possible. Your position of brocha levatala is taken by many such as Tosafos, Shiltei HaGibborim, and Rav Hai Gaon while the Rashba, the Ran, Rabbeinu Yona and  Rav Natronai Gaon provide support, for different reasons, for maintaining the minhag.

Suffice to say, the debate is not a new one and likely not one that will be affected by the few pennies it might save. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nathan,</p>
<p>The post was about economics, does the kiddush issue even approach making a dent in that regard?</p>
<p>And not to belabor the point, maybe too late for that, but kiddush bemakom seudah is a derabbanon, kiddush Friday night is, according to almost everyone, a deorisa. Some poskim even favor this minhag since kiddush is meant to be made as close to the entrance of shabbos as possible. Your position of brocha levatala is taken by many such as Tosafos, Shiltei HaGibborim, and Rav Hai Gaon while the Rashba, the Ran, Rabbeinu Yona and  Rav Natronai Gaon provide support, for different reasons, for maintaining the minhag.</p>
<p>Suffice to say, the debate is not a new one and likely not one that will be affected by the few pennies it might save.</p>
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		<title>By: PL</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/02/12/costs-of-orthodox-jewish-life-survey/comment-page-1/#comment-316487</link>
		<dc:creator>PL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 21:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1172#comment-316487</guid>
		<description>Nathan,

Not sure what you&#039;re getting at. Your points are very obviously unrelated to economics. Perhaps you might wish to write a post related to your particular agenda, where it will get the focus you wish for without detracting from the important theme of this one- economics.

Orthonomics- great points about wedding extras, early preschool when not needed, and pricey gifts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nathan,</p>
<p>Not sure what you&#8217;re getting at. Your points are very obviously unrelated to economics. Perhaps you might wish to write a post related to your particular agenda, where it will get the focus you wish for without detracting from the important theme of this one- economics.</p>
<p>Orthonomics- great points about wedding extras, early preschool when not needed, and pricey gifts.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/02/12/costs-of-orthodox-jewish-life-survey/comment-page-1/#comment-316485</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 21:06:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1172#comment-316485</guid>
		<description>Dear David Linn,

According to Halachah, Kiddush should be made in the same place where the meal will be eaten, Kiddush BeMakom Seudah.

Since no meals are eaten in the synagogue Shabbat nights, there is no reason to have Kiddush there.

Furthermore, reciting a Borei Pri HaGafen and then NOT drinking the wine is a Brachah LeBatalah, or certainly looks like one (Morris Ayin).

I am not tryng to compromise Halachah; I only oppose minhagim that oppose Halachah and/or obvious logic.

It is ironic that I have been accused of opposing Halachah, when the minhagim that I criticized are themselves in opposition to Halachah!

Sincerely,
Nathan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear David Linn,</p>
<p>According to Halachah, Kiddush should be made in the same place where the meal will be eaten, Kiddush BeMakom Seudah.</p>
<p>Since no meals are eaten in the synagogue Shabbat nights, there is no reason to have Kiddush there.</p>
<p>Furthermore, reciting a Borei Pri HaGafen and then NOT drinking the wine is a Brachah LeBatalah, or certainly looks like one (Morris Ayin).</p>
<p>I am not tryng to compromise Halachah; I only oppose minhagim that oppose Halachah and/or obvious logic.</p>
<p>It is ironic that I have been accused of opposing Halachah, when the minhagim that I criticized are themselves in opposition to Halachah!</p>
<p>Sincerely,<br />
Nathan</p>
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		<title>By: FFB</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/02/12/costs-of-orthodox-jewish-life-survey/comment-page-1/#comment-316479</link>
		<dc:creator>FFB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 20:02:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1172#comment-316479</guid>
		<description>Tzvi,  

That is the kind of mentality — refusal to compromise on any grounds — that has saved Yiddishkeit from the onslaught of Haskala, Reform, and Conservatism, and which will save it from the new pseudo-Orthodoxy.

And THAT is the kind of mentality — acceptance of compromise on almost any grounds — that has caused the mess secular and Modern Judaism is in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tzvi,  </p>
<p>That is the kind of mentality — refusal to compromise on any grounds — that has saved Yiddishkeit from the onslaught of Haskala, Reform, and Conservatism, and which will save it from the new pseudo-Orthodoxy.</p>
<p>And THAT is the kind of mentality — acceptance of compromise on almost any grounds — that has caused the mess secular and Modern Judaism is in.</p>
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		<title>By: David Linn</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/02/12/costs-of-orthodox-jewish-life-survey/comment-page-1/#comment-316478</link>
		<dc:creator>David Linn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:53:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1172#comment-316478</guid>
		<description>Nathan,

If someone as great as Rabbi Yaakov Emden  did not have the ability to abolish a minhag, do you really think that there is someone alive today that has the ability to do so?

Cherry-picking sources and quotes from Rabbonim (and I am not doubting your sources or the weight of these Rabbonim) doesn&#039;t support your point. You are clearly knowledgable but, I ask you, if you put your skills and efforts into researching sources and Rabbonim who disagree with all of the positions you have taken, wouldn&#039;t that list be equally impressive and, likely more lengthy and weighty?

Your list of ideas seems to be aimed at any rabbinic institution or minhag. This seems to go deeper than economics for you. For example, your idea about making kiddush in shul on Friday night. Let&#039;s say that one in three shuls is making kiddush in shul Friday night.  Let&#039;s say the average bottle of wine used for making kiddush in shul is seven dollars. Let&#039;s say the average shul that is making kiddush friday night has 100 members. I would assume that you get eight kiddush cups from a bottle. That means that by refraining from making kiddush in shul Friday night will save that shul aproximately $49 per year. That translates into less than fifty cents per member and less than twenty cents per year per person when including those shuls that don&#039;t make kiddush friday night. Is this a change that&#039;s going to help address the economic issues we are facing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nathan,</p>
<p>If someone as great as Rabbi Yaakov Emden  did not have the ability to abolish a minhag, do you really think that there is someone alive today that has the ability to do so?</p>
<p>Cherry-picking sources and quotes from Rabbonim (and I am not doubting your sources or the weight of these Rabbonim) doesn&#8217;t support your point. You are clearly knowledgable but, I ask you, if you put your skills and efforts into researching sources and Rabbonim who disagree with all of the positions you have taken, wouldn&#8217;t that list be equally impressive and, likely more lengthy and weighty?</p>
<p>Your list of ideas seems to be aimed at any rabbinic institution or minhag. This seems to go deeper than economics for you. For example, your idea about making kiddush in shul on Friday night. Let&#8217;s say that one in three shuls is making kiddush in shul Friday night.  Let&#8217;s say the average bottle of wine used for making kiddush in shul is seven dollars. Let&#8217;s say the average shul that is making kiddush friday night has 100 members. I would assume that you get eight kiddush cups from a bottle. That means that by refraining from making kiddush in shul Friday night will save that shul aproximately $49 per year. That translates into less than fifty cents per member and less than twenty cents per year per person when including those shuls that don&#8217;t make kiddush friday night. Is this a change that&#8217;s going to help address the economic issues we are facing?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Brizel</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2009/02/12/costs-of-orthodox-jewish-life-survey/comment-page-1/#comment-316469</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Brizel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=1172#comment-316469</guid>
		<description>Nathan raises many legitimate ideas, especially with such chumros and hidurim as Gebrochts, slaughtering chickens for Kaparos and R Tam Tefilin, etc. One can argue , as does the Kesef Mishneh in Hilcos Mamrim, that YT Sheni, being a rabbinic ordinance, as opposedto a minhag, requires greater halachic power to change in any way than a Torah law.However, not everything that is not required by halacha is a luxury. In previous generations, women were educated at home. Since the dawn of the 20th Century, women have been givem a formal Torah and secular education. IMO, camp and seminary fill in the gaps that are all too often missed at home, school and one&#039;s community of origin. The latest Commentator has an excellent interview with a veteran educator which underscores why for MO young men and women, the year in Israel is an essential part of their realizing the depth and profundity of Torah, as opposed to it being merely another course of study.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nathan raises many legitimate ideas, especially with such chumros and hidurim as Gebrochts, slaughtering chickens for Kaparos and R Tam Tefilin, etc. One can argue , as does the Kesef Mishneh in Hilcos Mamrim, that YT Sheni, being a rabbinic ordinance, as opposedto a minhag, requires greater halachic power to change in any way than a Torah law.However, not everything that is not required by halacha is a luxury. In previous generations, women were educated at home. Since the dawn of the 20th Century, women have been givem a formal Torah and secular education. IMO, camp and seminary fill in the gaps that are all too often missed at home, school and one&#8217;s community of origin. The latest Commentator has an excellent interview with a veteran educator which underscores why for MO young men and women, the year in Israel is an essential part of their realizing the depth and profundity of Torah, as opposed to it being merely another course of study.</p>
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