Let me just say here:

1)You gave the impression of criticizing the CONCEPT of any intrinsic value to avdus when you said “Not when your definition of Daas Torah is slavery. On Pesach we leave behind slavery for freedom.”

2)To say “slavery is not replaced with SLAVERY. It’s replaced with freedom…” is a semantic confusion. As said, I’m not going to start teaching here the basics of chazal about how true freedom is found only within Halachically grounded avdus. I’m very aware and sensitive to the fact that this diametrically threatens some major principles of Western thinking. But it remains rock bottom Torah Judaism nevertheless.

So don’t fight with me but chazal. And for that matter the Torah itself, which all over the place demands our being “oived” Him, citing the Exodus as the basis of His right to that radical, totally counter-intuitive claim on our lives.

3) How to distinguish between the soul liberating divine avdus and the psychologically inhibited thinking patterns that emerge from experiences of counterfeit avdus to far from divine human masters — it’s a good question. And one I’ve made clear I profoundly struggle with myself.

So maybe you’d like to think twice before you toss out another label and group my thinking with another commentor.

b’hatzlocha!

And when did I say that we weren’t supposed to be servants of Him? You selfrighteously presume too much. Much like your friend. And no, slavery is not replaced with SLAVERY. It’s replaced with freedom – true freedom, or, what freedom truly is – to serve Hashem appropriately as a holy nation.

Even if we learn it like you and say we are now “slaves” to Hashem, this does not excuse a ’slave mentality’ – which is the mentality of a slave not-of-Hashem- but of Egypt, the type of mentality the Ibn Ezra describes, which is commonly lingering in former slaves (not of Hashem) accustomed to their old ways, and which we must liberate ourselves from, in order to actualize our potential.

Getting back to what originally caused this discussion Peleg wrote: “Peleg wrote: “in reponse to a comment I made about the Godolim, about how I automatically don’t swallow everything they say”

It would actually be quite difficult to “automatically swallow everything they say” considering they often disagree with one another. Then you’re left with ‘dueling daas Torah.’

when you put tifillen on someone at work or on the street, when you explain a concept in yiddishkeit to someone on the plane, you renind yourself that the “job” isn’t over until we have the complete redemption.

of course, we have to stay far away from jewish politics and bring out the positive in all cases in order to mekariv another yid, but we also have to be strong while leaving the door open & inviting all to enter and grow. i am not a shliach per se, but each and every jew has to perceive themselves as the shliach when incountering any other yid & even the goyim with the sheva mitzvahs.
may we all grow from strength to strength ourselves and realize that the job isn’t quite over even if we are getting close.

every little advance (or mitzvah) is a step closer to the geula.
hatlacha rabba
yitzchak

Now we might appreciate a little more how H’ (kivyachol) feels: “Im shamoa tishmau…”

But it’s short and “sweet.”

And so you’ve done, ffb, at present, more elegantly than either of us usually do. You’re letting the Torah defend itself.

A.W.J: She gave you a pasuk. There are plenty more. Simple, straight forward ones. The Orchestrator of the Exodus states over and over again that the reason is to SERVE Him; that one, impure slavery should be replaced with a different, higher, purer one.

Go learn.

And then come back and we can cry together. It’s HARD. Terribly, excuciatingly hard, when something in your soul has been touched by the divine spark of freedom that those who’ve rebelled against orthodoxy have made a point of fanning into a wild, impure flame!

“Al tikra charus elah cheirus”, Chazal famously teach. We’re supposed to find “freedom” within the “engraved” commandments (same root). It’s an unbelievably compelling truth. The problem is whether we’re seeking pshat for how to LIVE it or a chochma for how to ESCAPE it.

Both can give a momentaty high. But only the first can maintain its integrity over time.

Pshat: G-d wants us to discover the freedom within the choosing to enslave ourselves to His Will; to learn to mesh my Will into His.

Escape: ANYthing but actually submit to a higher Will. Freedom means staying YOU!

Believe me, I say all this out of real struggle of my own. I, in contrast to ffb, took in the escape-education deep into my soul. But thank G-d, my truth seeking is stronger.

Isn’t it time we try to help each other get there?

Thanks again ffb. I’ll try again to keep every limb out of the quagmire. ShOVaVYM is almost over!!!!!!!

Not when your definition of Daas Torah is slavery. On Pesach we leave behind slavery for freedom. That’s not “modern jargon” but reality. What is left behind also includes the slave mentality.

The commenter who insulted Rabbi Nataf is obviously defensive and insecure about something, but more importantly, they ought to do teshuvah for their slander.

Subbmission to Daas Torah, yes. But only as long as it’s Daas TORAH.

As for “Rabbi” Francis Nataf, he sounds exactly like Moses Mendelson (who was also a rabbiner). I wonder what his new brand of Judaism will be named. “Reform”, “Conservative”, or “reconstructionist” would do nicely, but they’re taken already. How about “Creative Judaism”? Is that too close to “Creationism”?

A source for submission to Da’as Torah: את ה’ אלוקיך תירא, לרבות תלמידי חכמים (Talmud).

http://www.nachalnovea.com/breslovcenter/articles/article_tprince.html

It illustrates one way to navigate a transition to Torah values.

The principle is simple: The Creator does not need to prove the validity of His Will to anyone; only to those who sincerely seek it, who l’chatchilla understand that its upon them to prove their worth in recieving His direct guidance, will He reveal it.

Besides that, in His great compassion He has designated certain times and activities as most auspiscious opportunities for doing that submission. Like tfilla, Shabbos, the chagim.

Is this “unfriendly”?

It depends on the aim. If its submission for its own sake, since the basic belief is that there’s no value to independant human volition — then yes. VERY unfriendly, dangerous and disgusting!

If it’s meant as a springboard for bringing out the best and holiest within US — then no. It modern jargon this is called “tough love.”

The problem is why the established Torah faithful are not doing more to help BTs make the awesome transition between a strident world that has educated them to believe in indepenant willfullness above all (as Peleg originally referred to the nature of his struggle), towards one that insists they strip themselves of this klippa (extraneous spirit) before they can even BEGIN!