Comments on: Second Class: Not Just BTs

By: Ezzie

Ezzie — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 00:02:37 +0000

Note that I didn’t belittle her at all, though it might sound like it from the post. I don’t think she took it badly at all, either, but rather took to heart the point without feeling like I was attacking her in any way.

By: Bob Miller

Bob Miller — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:49:48 +0000

If you think you know what the questioner was really trying to ascertain, it’s no crime to answer accordingly. If you guessed wrong, you’ll know right away.

There’s no point, though, in belittling the questioner for being superficial. Doing that could harm the chances for a shidduch even more than naming the shirt color would.

By: Ezzie

Ezzie — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:20:29 +0000

Belle – I agree with Bob. People call with all sorts of questions for shidduchim, and unless the question is patently offensive, I answer them (how much does she weigh, what size does she wear). When the questions are, in my opinion, superficial or off-base, I file that away in case the subject calls me. Sometimes I volunteer that information (the questions asked) to the subject inquired about. In my opinion, the questions a person asks is as good a judge of his values as is anything else and can be used to decide whether to go forward with a shidduch as well by the other side. Caveat: I have been asked questions by people that seem extremely brief. In these cases I assume that most of their questions have been answered by others and they need just a little bit of supplemental info from me. No judgment there.

Just to clarify, the parenthetical Q’s were the ones that are offensive, not the ones you answer, correct? :)

In my opinion, the questions a person asks is as good a judge of his values as is anything else and can be used to decide whether to go forward with a shidduch as well by the other side.

Absolutely. See, this is why I’m not a writer – that’s part of what I was trying to say above in my comment. :)

By: Ezzie

Ezzie — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 22:51:54 +0000

DY – the point is, when someone asks you for info they are not asking for your opinion. the fact that he wears colored shirts, but you don’t think this should matter, is not what she is asking. she wants a yes or no, not your opinion on how the world works.

While fair, at the same time, I don’t have to answer her question on her terms. I can answer however I see fit, hang up on her, or answer her way.

I think people are getting away from what the point of the story was and why I responded as I did. Too much of what people do is done because “well, that’s how it’s done”. I originally had written in opposing general examples, but this lady called while I was writing the post, so I thought it apropos. People *do* need to realize what is and isn’t an important difference, and even within what they find important, it’s only as important as other people make it as well.

G makes the point well above. Think of it this way: If a person is looking for a person who values learning very much in addition to his profession, they might have it ingrained that such a person typically wears a white shirt. Or that people wearing white shirts place more of an emphasis on this. Whether that’s true or not can be debated to no end, but certainly the question itself is a superficial one that is used to symbolize something as opposed to a meaningful one, particularly when not everyone thinks it is of a value. (Does he take his learning seriously, for example. She asked that as well, and I was very happy to answer it.)

The best way of viewing my response is as a lesson/question to the woman: Do you realize what exactly you are asking? If not, okay. If so, do you mean it is actually important (in which case I’ll probably tell my friend that I got a call about a girl he’s probably not interested in) or do you think it’s symbolic, in which case what are you really trying to ask, and ask me that.

By: belle

belle — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 21:18:13 +0000

I agree with Bob. People call with all sorts of questions for shidduchim, and unless the question is patently offensive, I answer them (how much does she weigh, what size does she wear). When the questions are, in my opinion, superficial or off-base, I file that away in case the subject calls me. Sometimes I volunteer that information (the questions asked) to the subject inquired about. In my opinion, the questions a person asks is as good a judge of his values as is anything else and can be used to decide whether to go forward with a shidduch as well by the other side. Caveat: I have been asked questions by people that seem extremely brief. In these cases I assume that most of their questions have been answered by others and they need just a little bit of supplemental info from me. No judgment there.

By: DY

DY — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:35:37 +0000

the point is, when someone asks you for info they are not asking for your opinion. the fact that he wears colored shirts, but you don’t think this should matter, is not what she is asking. she wants a yes or no, not your opinion on how the world works. if you feel her question or the value judgment she is making based on the info is silly, that’s something else. to her, this obviously matters. that is a reality. you may take issue with the importance she places on this issue, but calling it “superficial” might in its own right be called, well…superficial. could it be superficial in the very same sense of the word that you use it on her: she obviously feels it significant, and the possibility is that you do not understand her point of view, and have judged her to be silly because of that?

By: Bob Miller

Bob Miller — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:49:54 +0000

The idea could be that a person might subjectively read a particular meaning into a thing or event.

Non-white shirts might be a negative factor to someone who regards white shirts as a necessary indicator of frumkeit.

By: G

Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:21:12 +0000

but to some people such things are symbolic of other things, whether you agree or not.

what in the world does that even mean? To some people soemthing is symbolic of something else? But to others it is not? So in essence the thing that we are trying to prove may or may not even be a reality?

really, i am confused by the wording of this statement.

By: Ezzie

Ezzie — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:29:09 +0000

I answered the question, actually; I was merely making a point, in particular in regard to how the question was asked. If anything, I added to the answer in a way that is important to the person asking: Had I simply answered “colored shirts” with no explanation they would have had a skewed response based on their ‘understanding’ of the boy.

As a note, it is *certainly* superficial, however much a person may think it symbolic of other things, and that point was clearly made in regards to the boy being asked about. If the lady wished to know about the boy and what hashkafos he values, she was perfectly able to ask those things; she did this to an extent and got the answers she wanted. The shirt part is meaningless and superficial, however “symbolic”.

By: anon

anon — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:47:35 +0000

i think it is rude of you to refuse to say what color shirt the fellow wears. You may think it is superficial – and may bully your caller into saying so – but to some people such things are symbolic of other things, whether you agree or not.

By: Ezzie

Ezzie — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 05:11:03 +0000

And we do judge people. In fact in this post a judgment was made that people who care about dress are superficial. But there are many reasons to care about dress where superficiality does not come into play.

Absolutely. Even while using that example, I’m not suggesting that there’s something wrong with people caring about what clothes a person wears – but that it has to get back to the underlying point of it, and not just “what color is his shirt”. It’s simply a good reminder of why a particular judgment is important – not because of the guideline used, but what it’s used for.

Really understanding another point of view takes a lot of work, but perhaps this learning and understanding coupled with chesed holds the key.

Exactly. In our house, we’ve had (for example) discussions with our guests on different ways of life. Often, I’ll find myself adamantly defending a way of life with which I don’t necessarily agree because it’s important to see the other side of the coin, too. While I may not agree with it, it certainly has its merits and positives.

Bob – Excellent comment. Thank you.

By: Bob Miller

Bob Miller — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 18:37:28 +0000

Judgments of people should be provisional, not final. That is, when we use shortcut methods to size someone up, the results are not the last word. Provisional judgments are all subject to revision as the real facts, old or new, are discovered. We especially ought to notice when people change; not noticing that is a form of laziness.

By: Mark Frankel

Mark Frankel — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 18:13:17 +0000

I like the thrust of this post, which I see as focusing on our own acceptance of others.

The difficulty is that we do see things as hierarchical and there are real conflicts. So much so that the Mesillas Yesharim suggests that you use this hierarchical thinking to improve your Avodas Hashem. That is you should focus on how bad you will feel if a person that you thought was spiritually lower than you turns out to have earned a higher place than you in the World to Come. And that’s the second highest level!

So what’s the answer? One answer might be to recognize that when two people or groups get together there will be conflicts at some level. Our job is to balance the Emes/Din as we see it with Shalom/Chesed, but to recognize that there are legitimate conflicts in any two views.

For me Rebbetzin Heller’s motto of what can I give, what can I learn is helpful. No matter what the conflict we can always give to and learn from another person. Really understanding another point of view takes a lot of work, but perhaps this learning and understanding coupled with chesed holds the key.