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	<title>Comments on: Norman</title>
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	<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2008/02/13/norman/</link>
	<description>Baalei Teshuva / Baalei Teshuvah and Other Growth Oriented Jews</description>
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		<title>By: Gershon Seif</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2008/02/13/norman/comment-page-1/#comment-142684</link>
		<dc:creator>Gershon Seif</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:52:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=917#comment-142684</guid>
		<description>Steve I know about that and every time I hear the cute catch tune on the radio (yes they advertise out here i Chicago too) I wonder if the average American listening has the faintest clue as to where the car is being donated to. But why exactly did you direct that comment to me? Was it because I mentioned that humans have the capacity to be honest and still be weak morally?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve I know about that and every time I hear the cute catch tune on the radio (yes they advertise out here i Chicago too) I wonder if the average American listening has the faintest clue as to where the car is being donated to. But why exactly did you direct that comment to me? Was it because I mentioned that humans have the capacity to be honest and still be weak morally?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Brizel</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2008/02/13/norman/comment-page-1/#comment-142280</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Brizel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 23:03:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=917#comment-142280</guid>
		<description>Bob-we don&#039;t have such watchdogs on a communal level. However, in Baltimore, noone collects Tzedaka without R Heineman&#039;s approval.  Rabbis urge their members to give to the tzedakos and mosdos that they deem the most important. The mossad that I referred to makes no reference in its ads for car donations that any of its services to kiruv. One has to click a mouse and find a linked web site and tax return for that information. The car donation ads and blurbs refer to &quot;underprivileged children&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob-we don&#8217;t have such watchdogs on a communal level. However, in Baltimore, noone collects Tzedaka without R Heineman&#8217;s approval.  Rabbis urge their members to give to the tzedakos and mosdos that they deem the most important. The mossad that I referred to makes no reference in its ads for car donations that any of its services to kiruv. One has to click a mouse and find a linked web site and tax return for that information. The car donation ads and blurbs refer to &#8220;underprivileged children&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2008/02/13/norman/comment-page-1/#comment-142104</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 14:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=917#comment-142104</guid>
		<description>Steve,

Do we have watchdog organizations who fairly evaluate the performance of our charities?  How do rabbis and shuls decide where to route their contributions?

Does the mosad you referred to claim that its kiruv services go solely or primarily to children deprived of some non-material good thing (e.g., Torah) ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>Do we have watchdog organizations who fairly evaluate the performance of our charities?  How do rabbis and shuls decide where to route their contributions?</p>
<p>Does the mosad you referred to claim that its kiruv services go solely or primarily to children deprived of some non-material good thing (e.g., Torah) ?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Brizel</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2008/02/13/norman/comment-page-1/#comment-141980</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Brizel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 02:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=917#comment-141980</guid>
		<description>Gershon-there are few things that get me more upset than failing to adhere to Midas HaEmes in the many Mitzvos Bein Adam LChavero that affect not one of us, but potentially all of Klal Yisrael. Let me give a specific case-there is a mosad in the kiruv world that raises funds via donation of used cars. The advertising says nothing about the purpose or use of the donation except that one is helping &quot;underprivileged children&quot;. The facts are that if one follows the trail of a tax return and links, one reaches a kiruv site. When a local reporter exposed it, she was treated poorly by the person running this operation in a major Torah community. One can argue very convincingly that the whole operation is run in violation of a severe prohibition-Gnevas Daas. Yet, if one sees the posts on at least two other blogs, there is no shame-instead, one sees rationalization and justification of what can arguably called Chillul HaShem. Like it or not, such incidents and others of the same ilk can have a profoundly negative influence on a would be BT.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gershon-there are few things that get me more upset than failing to adhere to Midas HaEmes in the many Mitzvos Bein Adam LChavero that affect not one of us, but potentially all of Klal Yisrael. Let me give a specific case-there is a mosad in the kiruv world that raises funds via donation of used cars. The advertising says nothing about the purpose or use of the donation except that one is helping &#8220;underprivileged children&#8221;. The facts are that if one follows the trail of a tax return and links, one reaches a kiruv site. When a local reporter exposed it, she was treated poorly by the person running this operation in a major Torah community. One can argue very convincingly that the whole operation is run in violation of a severe prohibition-Gnevas Daas. Yet, if one sees the posts on at least two other blogs, there is no shame-instead, one sees rationalization and justification of what can arguably called Chillul HaShem. Like it or not, such incidents and others of the same ilk can have a profoundly negative influence on a would be BT.</p>
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		<title>By: R' Bar-Chaiim</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2008/02/13/norman/comment-page-1/#comment-141902</link>
		<dc:creator>R' Bar-Chaiim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 20:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=917#comment-141902</guid>
		<description>THAT&#039;s why we need Torah, Fern. The COMPLETE Torah. Our &quot;strangeness&quot; is the yeitzer, which seeps into the most kodesh places.  Even our supremely rational mind.  Nadav and Avihu gave &quot;aish zara&quot; that everyone says was truly kodesh, yet it terribly backfired, as an explicit punishment.  How could that be? Now consider that the word zara has at it&#039;s root zeir, which means crown,or periphery ring, like that which surrounds the Ark.  What&#039;s the connection??

We humans are very strange indeed. As long as we are calling the shots, it&#039;s IMPOSSIBLE to lead a successful kodesh life.  Our Yeitzer will follow us even there... and then we&#039;re in BIG trouble.

People like Norm realize that.  In a certain way they are to be commended.  And then we must learn the lesson... and daven our hearts out to learn how to live HIS Torah on HIS terms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>THAT&#8217;s why we need Torah, Fern. The COMPLETE Torah. Our &#8220;strangeness&#8221; is the yeitzer, which seeps into the most kodesh places.  Even our supremely rational mind.  Nadav and Avihu gave &#8220;aish zara&#8221; that everyone says was truly kodesh, yet it terribly backfired, as an explicit punishment.  How could that be? Now consider that the word zara has at it&#8217;s root zeir, which means crown,or periphery ring, like that which surrounds the Ark.  What&#8217;s the connection??</p>
<p>We humans are very strange indeed. As long as we are calling the shots, it&#8217;s IMPOSSIBLE to lead a successful kodesh life.  Our Yeitzer will follow us even there&#8230; and then we&#8217;re in BIG trouble.</p>
<p>People like Norm realize that.  In a certain way they are to be commended.  And then we must learn the lesson&#8230; and daven our hearts out to learn how to live HIS Torah on HIS terms.</p>
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		<title>By: Fern R</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2008/02/13/norman/comment-page-1/#comment-141722</link>
		<dc:creator>Fern R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 08:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=917#comment-141722</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I hit the submit button too soon...

The funny thing is, that I can remember very well exactly where I was and what I was doing when I realized that I didn&#039;t believe in the Reform interpretation and that instead, I believed that Torah was true and it applied to me. I was eating fast food with my mom, in my car. But it took a couple of years for me to seriously start investigating what it meant to live an observant life. I think there was a part of me who really identified with what the young man Ellen described did. There was a disconnect between what I believed and what I wanted to do. I have an uncle who essentially is permanently stuck in that disconnect. He davens regularly at an Orthodox shul and with Orthodox minyans, he accepts the Orthodox understanding of Torah and mitzvot...but he just likes eating treif food and using his microwave during Shabbat. Yaakov Eric is right. We humans are very strange creatures!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I hit the submit button too soon&#8230;</p>
<p>The funny thing is, that I can remember very well exactly where I was and what I was doing when I realized that I didn&#8217;t believe in the Reform interpretation and that instead, I believed that Torah was true and it applied to me. I was eating fast food with my mom, in my car. But it took a couple of years for me to seriously start investigating what it meant to live an observant life. I think there was a part of me who really identified with what the young man Ellen described did. There was a disconnect between what I believed and what I wanted to do. I have an uncle who essentially is permanently stuck in that disconnect. He davens regularly at an Orthodox shul and with Orthodox minyans, he accepts the Orthodox understanding of Torah and mitzvot&#8230;but he just likes eating treif food and using his microwave during Shabbat. Yaakov Eric is right. We humans are very strange creatures!</p>
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		<title>By: Fern R</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2008/02/13/norman/comment-page-1/#comment-141717</link>
		<dc:creator>Fern R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 07:59:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=917#comment-141717</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;I doubt that many people actually make a decision to become a Baal Teshuva based on rational explanations. Almost every one I know who really looked back at their decision to become Orthodox talks about their good experiences - the community, the shabbot meals etc.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

I made the decision to be be observant before I had ever met an Orthodox Jew, let alone been invited to a Shabbos dinner. I was raised Reform but when I was in my early twenties I realized that Reform&#039;s interpretation of Torah didn&#039;t make sense to me. Why would G-d give us an explanation of how to live and then not expect us to follow all of the directions, and why would I want to follow directions on how to live if they were written by men who made mistakes when they were writing the instructions? After I had that realization, I started investigating the Orthodox understanding of Torah and mitzvot. The rest is history. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;I doubt that many people actually make a decision to become a Baal Teshuva based on rational explanations. Almost every one I know who really looked back at their decision to become Orthodox talks about their good experiences &#8211; the community, the shabbot meals etc.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>I made the decision to be be observant before I had ever met an Orthodox Jew, let alone been invited to a Shabbos dinner. I was raised Reform but when I was in my early twenties I realized that Reform&#8217;s interpretation of Torah didn&#8217;t make sense to me. Why would G-d give us an explanation of how to live and then not expect us to follow all of the directions, and why would I want to follow directions on how to live if they were written by men who made mistakes when they were writing the instructions? After I had that realization, I started investigating the Orthodox understanding of Torah and mitzvot. The rest is history. ;-)</p>
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		<title>By: Mordy</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2008/02/13/norman/comment-page-1/#comment-141626</link>
		<dc:creator>Mordy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=917#comment-141626</guid>
		<description>I recently attented a shiur in Queens, by chazaq. it dealt with similar situations...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently attented a shiur in Queens, by chazaq. it dealt with similar situations&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: R' Bar-Chaiim</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2008/02/13/norman/comment-page-1/#comment-141503</link>
		<dc:creator>R' Bar-Chaiim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:51:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=917#comment-141503</guid>
		<description>How about considering him as being machmeer in the first part of &quot;v&#039;asisa es ha&#039;yeshar v&#039;ha&#039;tov b&#039;einei H&#039;&quot;?

Before we get to the Tov, we need the yeshar.

How many people do we know who have dived into the world of Tov - of kdusha and tsedek and din and emuna - but remain far from the world of yosher?  As per the shabbos morning tfillah:  

B&#039;fee YESHARIM comes before all mention of Tsaddikim, chasidim and kdoishim!

True Tov takes time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about considering him as being machmeer in the first part of &#8220;v&#8217;asisa es ha&#8217;yeshar v&#8217;ha&#8217;tov b&#8217;einei H&#8217;&#8221;?</p>
<p>Before we get to the Tov, we need the yeshar.</p>
<p>How many people do we know who have dived into the world of Tov &#8211; of kdusha and tsedek and din and emuna &#8211; but remain far from the world of yosher?  As per the shabbos morning tfillah:  </p>
<p>B&#8217;fee YESHARIM comes before all mention of Tsaddikim, chasidim and kdoishim!</p>
<p>True Tov takes time.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben-David</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2008/02/13/norman/comment-page-1/#comment-141391</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben-David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:34:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=917#comment-141391</guid>
		<description>Knowing the truth, knowing you are trying to live up to it - these are pleasures of a sort.

Rav Dessler discusses the person who is simply not interested in such spriritual or intellectual pleasures - who considers them a burden. These are the &quot;Esau&quot; types who can been exposed to great Torah personlities, and reject their connection to them  - who can say &quot;we&#039;re all going to die anyway, so what good is it to me is to be Isaac&#039;s firtborn?&quot;

The question illustrates the mindset that produces it: what&#039;s in it for me - using the basest, most material definitions of &quot;me&quot; and &quot;benefit&quot;.

Pretty common attitude among products of modern materialism and secular indoctrination. Kiruv workers will tell you that the greatest attrition comes before the lecture - most people simply bow out. They&#039;re not interested.

What&#039;s unusual about Norm&#039;s story is that such an indifferent fellow was induced to actually sit down and listen.

And perhaps the author thought that the beauty/truth/power of Torah must inexorably effect people who are exposed to it. Didn&#039;t happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Knowing the truth, knowing you are trying to live up to it &#8211; these are pleasures of a sort.</p>
<p>Rav Dessler discusses the person who is simply not interested in such spriritual or intellectual pleasures &#8211; who considers them a burden. These are the &#8220;Esau&#8221; types who can been exposed to great Torah personlities, and reject their connection to them  &#8211; who can say &#8220;we&#8217;re all going to die anyway, so what good is it to me is to be Isaac&#8217;s firtborn?&#8221;</p>
<p>The question illustrates the mindset that produces it: what&#8217;s in it for me &#8211; using the basest, most material definitions of &#8220;me&#8221; and &#8220;benefit&#8221;.</p>
<p>Pretty common attitude among products of modern materialism and secular indoctrination. Kiruv workers will tell you that the greatest attrition comes before the lecture &#8211; most people simply bow out. They&#8217;re not interested.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s unusual about Norm&#8217;s story is that such an indifferent fellow was induced to actually sit down and listen.</p>
<p>And perhaps the author thought that the beauty/truth/power of Torah must inexorably effect people who are exposed to it. Didn&#8217;t happen.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2008/02/13/norman/comment-page-1/#comment-141326</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2008 04:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=917#comment-141326</guid>
		<description>The fellow who said this to me is a serious and very sensitive kiruv guy who has worked for and headed some of the best known kiruv initiatives ever -- and who is an FFB from a well-known American yeshiva family who is no stranger to the seamy underside of pretty much everything. More than this I can&#039;t say without as much as spelling out who he is, except to say that if I could say it, his words would be even more surprising. 

Having said all that, perhaps for these reasons his take is entitled to a lot of credibility.  We certainly must always be awake to the power of rationalization, after all.

But it&#039;s hard for me to abandon my original thesis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fellow who said this to me is a serious and very sensitive kiruv guy who has worked for and headed some of the best known kiruv initiatives ever &#8212; and who is an FFB from a well-known American yeshiva family who is no stranger to the seamy underside of pretty much everything. More than this I can&#8217;t say without as much as spelling out who he is, except to say that if I could say it, his words would be even more surprising. </p>
<p>Having said all that, perhaps for these reasons his take is entitled to a lot of credibility.  We certainly must always be awake to the power of rationalization, after all.</p>
<p>But it&#8217;s hard for me to abandon my original thesis.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2008/02/13/norman/comment-page-1/#comment-141292</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2008 03:42:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=917#comment-141292</guid>
		<description>Steve, what you say doesn&#039;t contradict my point, which is really that packaging of people or products or whatever can be deceptive and we need to be on guard.  If we had been more attentive, we might have detected your jailbird&#039;s problem before charges were even filed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, what you say doesn&#8217;t contradict my point, which is really that packaging of people or products or whatever can be deceptive and we need to be on guard.  If we had been more attentive, we might have detected your jailbird&#8217;s problem before charges were even filed.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Brizel</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2008/02/13/norman/comment-page-1/#comment-141258</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Brizel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2008 01:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=917#comment-141258</guid>
		<description>Bob Miller-Unfortunately, there are many people of stature within the Torah observant world who are very willing and eager to rationalize conduct that is a Chillul HaShem. Today&#039;s NY Times mentioned a lawsuit by a ritually observant person serving a hefty Federal prison sentence for financial fraud whose complaint is that he cannot daven in his cell because there is a toilet in the cell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob Miller-Unfortunately, there are many people of stature within the Torah observant world who are very willing and eager to rationalize conduct that is a Chillul HaShem. Today&#8217;s NY Times mentioned a lawsuit by a ritually observant person serving a hefty Federal prison sentence for financial fraud whose complaint is that he cannot daven in his cell because there is a toilet in the cell.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2008/02/13/norman/comment-page-1/#comment-140843</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:16:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=917#comment-140843</guid>
		<description>As long as some types of public behavior and special garb earn respect, there will also be perp types who outwardly act and dress the part but with evil intent.  Our job as mature adults is to not be taken in by superficialities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As long as some types of public behavior and special garb earn respect, there will also be perp types who outwardly act and dress the part but with evil intent.  Our job as mature adults is to not be taken in by superficialities.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Brizel</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2008/02/13/norman/comment-page-1/#comment-140830</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Brizel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=917#comment-140830</guid>
		<description>Like it or not, both a BT and FFB should be upset when someone who purports to be a &quot;spiritual leader&quot; but who in reality is just a &quot;ritually observant&quot; Jew walks a &quot;perp walk&quot; for a white collar offense. It is a sad reality, but one can find Federal prisons where there are Daf Yomi shiurim and litigation over wearing beards and being provided Glatt Kosher food and the ability to keep Shabbos, etc, reported in the Federal case law reports. FWIW, RSZA was agast when soneone suggested that there was a mitzvah of Pidyon Shevuyim for such persons. R Y Kaminetzy did not believe that such a person should recite a bracha upon his release from jail because there was an adequate basis for his being convicted and sentenced in the first place. 

FWIW,anyone who has read about a certain &quot;spiritual leader&quot; and his indictment on multiple Federal violations of securities laws and who apparently operated under the view that ignoring Anerican law was no different than ignoring the royal edicts of a European monarch because the ends justified the means of &quot;saving&quot; his mossad should be disturbed and upset at the use of such an inappropriate rational. IMO, kiruv professionals should be willing to say to anyone that such conduct is wrong, as opposed to exercising in rhetoric that can only be described as &quot;blaming the victim.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like it or not, both a BT and FFB should be upset when someone who purports to be a &#8220;spiritual leader&#8221; but who in reality is just a &#8220;ritually observant&#8221; Jew walks a &#8220;perp walk&#8221; for a white collar offense. It is a sad reality, but one can find Federal prisons where there are Daf Yomi shiurim and litigation over wearing beards and being provided Glatt Kosher food and the ability to keep Shabbos, etc, reported in the Federal case law reports. FWIW, RSZA was agast when soneone suggested that there was a mitzvah of Pidyon Shevuyim for such persons. R Y Kaminetzy did not believe that such a person should recite a bracha upon his release from jail because there was an adequate basis for his being convicted and sentenced in the first place. </p>
<p>FWIW,anyone who has read about a certain &#8220;spiritual leader&#8221; and his indictment on multiple Federal violations of securities laws and who apparently operated under the view that ignoring Anerican law was no different than ignoring the royal edicts of a European monarch because the ends justified the means of &#8220;saving&#8221; his mossad should be disturbed and upset at the use of such an inappropriate rational. IMO, kiruv professionals should be willing to say to anyone that such conduct is wrong, as opposed to exercising in rhetoric that can only be described as &#8220;blaming the victim.&#8221;</p>
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