http://www.beingjewish.com/kresel/equal.html

This is definitely true. No way should I treat all my children the same. It would do each of them a disservice. But (you knew there had to be a but coming), I know all my children as individuals and can tailor how I treat them to their own needs. (Sometimes I even manage ;-) ). In Orthodoxy, *all* women are treated the same, and *all* men are treated the same. And I’m not so sure that women’s needs are all so similar that we should all be lumped together like that. People just seem more complex than that. I could see an argument that the traditional Orthodox woman’s role fits a mother actively raising children. I’m not sure I completely accept that argument, but I can see how it’s worthy of consideration. And a long time ago, girls married young and women generally died early. So the great majority of women probably *were* mothers actively raising children. But today, mothers actively raising children are probably *not* the great majority of Jewish women. There are lots of women who are single or divorced or widowed, or whose kids are grown. Whereas a long time ago a girl could expect to spend most of her adult life childrearing, today that is not necessarily true. And I think it is tougher to make the argument that the Orthodox woman’s role meets the needs of women at these other stages of life.

I also want to respond to your other paragraph about Chazal. I do assume that the Rabbanim truly loved and respected all their fellow Jews and were searching honestly for Divine will. I certainly don’t think that they were trying to stick it to women, and there is plenty of evidence of just the opposite. However (again), they *were* products of their own times and cultures. Even Tzadikim are human. Thousands of years ago women were looked at in, yes, a more sexist way than we are today. This probably seemed completely natural and immutable to people living back then. They would probably be shocked at the changes in gender relations even within frum communities. So it seems reasonable to me to think that Chazal enshrined sexist attitudes in Jewish law, even when they were trying to search honestly for Divine will. Furthermore, there were almost no women in this group. So I also question how much they could understand women when women weren’t even represented. (And the women who were represented may not have been so representative either). In other words, I figure that the Rabbanim had good intentions but were still sexist. I guess you would disagree. (!) If so, I’m interested to know how you think the Rabbis *were* able to get beyond their own time and culture and innate biases.

I agree with this that you wrote, that my kind of attitude “doesn’t exactly lead to a desire to follow rabbinic law, whether on issues related to gender-based observance or something completely different.” But what to do, this attitude does make more sense to me than the idea that the Rabbanim were able to get beyond their culture and time and make laws that would be appropriate for cultures and times they couldn’t imagine.

You wrote that you didn’t used to think it was as good to be an Orthodox woman as an Orthodox man, but that now you feel differently. Would you mind elaborating and sharing what changed for you?

Your friend’s experience with her former egalitarian shul doesn’t match mine. In the very egal shul where I’ve been davening for years, men are very involved, at least as much as the women and probably more. No doubt, the women do have more of a balancing act when we take public roles. It has certainly been a balancing act for me. I don’t know if that is good or bad – probably both.

At any rate, I am not so sure that watching my husband take public roles would be nearly as satisfying for me as taking the public roles myself. The truth is that I am much more exacting in reading Torah and leading davening than he is, and I carry a tune better. He has a lot of terrific qualities, but he’s not especially talented in this particular area.

You wrote, “I find that frum women who are comfortable in their role have no problems letting their husbands get the honor and take the credit. Their attitude is generally, ‘Let him think he’s in charge. We know who really runs the show.’ And, usually, I think it’s true.”

To me this sounds so condescending to men! It sounds like when my 5yo feels good because I tell him he is very big and strong. How can these women feel respect for their husbands with this kind of attitude? Or am I missing something?

Anyway, maybe the cause and effect is reversed. Maybe it’s not so much that being comfortable in her role makes a woman content to leave the credit and honor to her husband. Rather, some women seem to enjoy and are good at letting men think they are in charge. Maybe it is these women who find themselves comfortable and satisfied in their roles. Maybe being a “successful” Orthodox woman demands this kind of approach? Perhaps women who aren’t good at it or don’t have patience with it or see it as game playing find themselves less satisfied in the role of an Orthodox woman. Honestly, to me it just seems undignified for both parties.

Another thought: these comfortable frum women feel they’re letting the men *think* they’re running the show. But men are still making the rules, in the sense that Poskim and Rabbanim are men. So maybe these women are fooling *themselves* into thinking that *they* really run the show. Maybe it’s the men who are letting the women imagine that they’re really in charge, and the women are the ones being “taken in”.

IMO questioning Chazal on these issues is equally problematic for both sons and daughters. The basic assumption behind many concerns over sexism in Jewish practice is that Chazal and later great rabbis were, as men, sexist. Not only is this more than a bit insulting to men–not all men are automatically biased against women–it doesn’t exactly lead to a desire to follow rabbinic law, whether on issues related to gender-based observance or something completely different. I’m not saying we need to accept everything every rabbi said without questioning, questioning is good. But we should at least assume that they truly loved and respected all of their fellow Jews and were searching honestly for Divine will. IMO too few people do that when it comes to gender issues.

I find that frum women who are comfortable in their role have no problems letting their husbands get the honor and take the credit. Their attitude is generally, “Let him think
he’s in charge. We know who really runs the show.” And, usually, I think it’s true.

A friend of mine used to daven in an egalitarian Conservative shul. She has now moved to an Orthodox one. She noted that the men in her former shul were happy to sit back and let the women do all the work. They were much less involved in the shul than their counterparts in the Orthodox shul, because they didn’t feel that they had to do anything. My friend is happy that her husband is forced to participate in the services (and is starting to enjoy them) because he can’t rely on her having a public role there.

The character traits that the Torah values are those that are more common to women. So it is easier for women to live up to those guidelines than men. Is this bad or good? Is it better to be an FFB than a BT? There are pluses and minuses to both.

Here is another example: Shelo Assani Isha (The blessing men say expressing gratitude that they are not made as women). It certainly stands out as rubbing a lot of women (and some men) the wrong way. I have read several explanations for this blessing, but the most common explanation is this: men are obligated to do more Mitzvot than women, so men thank God for being the sex that gets the greater number of Mitzvot. In other words, despite the claim that women don’t have these Mitzvot because we don’t need them, it’s still better to have to do the Mitzvot than to not to need to do them. In other words, it’s better to be a man in Orthodoxy. This hardly takes the sting away from this blessing!

Plus, it contradicts the idea that the sexes are equal in Orthodoxy. If they were, then men wouldn’t be glad they have more Mitzvot. Why should they be glad they weren’t created as women if it’s just as good to be an Orthodox woman as it is to be an Orthodox man?

There are many examples like this. When I see clearly bright people putting forward arguments that make no sense or making claims that don’t have much basis, it doesn’t seem intellectually honest to me.

If you occupy yourself with these things, I don’t think you’ll have time to be unhappy.

For me it is a given that I want my children to be observant and committed to teaching their own children to be observant. Clearly the Orthodox do a much better job of that the Conservative. But I examine Orthodox belief similarly to how I examine Conservative belief; that is, how does it play out in practice? And I’m not so comfortable with certain major aspects of Orthodox practice. If I accepted the practice then I would probably be more comfortable with the theory. If I accepted the theory, I would probably be more comfortable with the practice. But neither one really makes sense to me. And yet, serious Jewish observance is pretty limited to the Orthodox world. So you can see I’m in a bit of a bind!

I will try to respond later to the rest of what you wrote.

I would say the issue of prayer is a bit more complex than that, b/c there are differences in opinion regarding what exactly a woman can or can’t lead, and to a certain extent regarding the reasons for certain rulings. I wish I could give more specific examples, but I never really learned this beyond a relatively quick overview. I do know that some orthodox women will (for example) lead women’s prayer sessions, read the megillah for other women on Purim, learn Gemara, and lead certain other prayers/readings, while other orthodox women don’t do those things.

In general you’re right about the overall orthodox position, at least according to what I’ve learned. What part do you find less than intellectually honest?

For me the problem is broader than just issues of public prayer, although that is a big issue in itself. It seems like women are not equal within Orthodoxy in a lot of ways, not just in public prayer. I am open to being convinced that this is not true, but this is how it seems to me. When I read, say, feminist Orthodox writing, it seems intellectually honest to me. More traditional Orthodox explanations of differences in male-female roles seem less intellectually honest to me. I wish it were otherwise.

Regarding public prayer, though, I am curious about your suggestion to study the Halachot in greater depth. I thought the argument is as follows: Men and women are different spiritually as well as physically and therefore they have different roles. One of the differences in roles is that men are commanded to do certain Mitzvot that women are either not obligated to do or that women have a lesser obligation to do. Since men have a greater obligation in these areas, (prayer, for example), women cannot help men to fulfill their obligations, by, say, counting for a Minyan or leading prayers. That is what I understood the Orthodox position and reasoning to be. Is it more complex than that? This might sound like a strange question, but I am asking it seriously: is there so much more to learn about the issue?

I’m not sure I understood your point about women who like participating actively in public prayer finding peace with their inability to do that within Orthodoxy. I can see that there are women who do accept Orthodox belief after studying it in detail. But presumably there are also women who study it in detail and come to the conclusion that they are really not at peace with Orthodox belief. So it’s not clear to me that studying this necessarily leads to agreement with it or acceptance of it. Or did I misunderstand your point?

IMO (I will not say that my opinion is that of a highly intelligent Jewish woman, but I’ll offer it anyway), women tend to be dissatisfied with their role in orthodox prayer services when they haven’t fully accepted the related halachot/rabbinic rulings. In my experience, even those who really liked leading services, reading from the Torah, etc, find peace with their inability to do those things in the frum world once they understand and accept why those things aren’t done (although there are women’s prayer services in many communities, and I have ex-Reform friends who make it a point to lead Rosh Hodesh davening or to read the Megillah–it provides them with somewhat of an outlet for their need to lead prayers). It’s the feeling that leading prayers and reading from the Torah is/should be OK for both sexes that keeps people frustrated.

IMO the best way to deal is to seriously study the topic, more than once if necessary, and then to find a community that holds by the opinions you hold by, whether that be the traditional orthodox model or something that allows for more female participation (within the bounds of halacha).

Rabbi Metzger’s ruling was hardly new. I’m guessing he was thinking approximately what leading Ashkenazi rabbis have been thinking for several centuries. It probably involves something about weighing the importance of maintaining certain societal mores and Torah values against the importance of promoting observance among certain individuals. Not an easy call, IMO.

“And here I was actually trying to research the concept and understand it, why would I even care now ? … Why would I even think about caring about mikvah if there are rabbis doing decrees like this.”

Why would you cut off your nose to spite Rabbi Metzger’s face? Also, if you haven’t researched and understood the concept yet, then with all due respect (really), why are you so hostile to his ruling? How do you know that with a bit more research you won’t understand where he’s coming from, even if you don’t agree with his opinion?