Why People Leave Torah Observance
February 1st, 2008 - Guest Contributor
Here are some different thoughts in the comments from this recent thread
Ora:
1) It is easier to be secular than to be frum.
2) The values of outside society tend to contradict a lot of things found in Torah. Many Jews I know who became less religious/irreligious had problems with the prohibition on intermarriage, the distinctions between Jew and non-Jew in halacha, the different roles for men and women, the prohibition on gay relationships, etc. It can be hard raising kids as American Jews or Israeli Jews (for example) when Americans and Israelis tend to see Jewish law as backwards, restrictive, and even homophobic and racist.
3) General society tends not to be religious, and tends even to have negative views of religion and certainly negative views of a religion that requires adherents to eat, dress, and pray in a certain way. It can be hard to be religious when there’s a tendency around you to see religion as “the opiate of the masses” or some similar insulting thing.
Ron:
I don’t think anything is more devastating to an idealistic, sensitive person — and sorry, but absolutely everyone who reads this blog, and certainly everyone who contributes to it, is in this category, whether they want to admit it or not! — than encountering people and institutions (which are just collections of people) who fail to live up to the ideals of Judaism insofar as how they treat others.
I believe each and every departure from “the derech” has this at its heart.
Everyone makes his own decisions in life. Everyone is responsible for his own soul, even if other Jews are “guarantors.” There’s plenty of rationalization in the air around all of us. And as has been said here many times and in many forms, it does not follow logically that Judaism (much less Hashem) should be judged by individual Jews and their actions.
But I believe at the heart of every social damnation, every purported halachic breaking point, every demand for the application of non-spiritual paradigms (e.g., science) to spiritual questions by those who say they can’t or won’t do it any more, is a series of inexcusable, unforgivable and callous actions or omissions by one or more orthodox Jews.
It could be in the old country. It could be in a yeshiva or seminary. It could be in the workplace, or a bus stop, or even online. But reading between the lines of the many, many Jews whose hearts now spill out their pixelated pain, it seems that the personal, spiritual roshem (mark, impression) of a Jew’s actions in this world can be at once the single most inspiring, or the single most devastating, phenomenon any other Jew can encounter.
And I really don’t know, in terms of the negative part of that equation, what we can do about that, except pile as much onto the positive part as we possibly can, and have faith in Hashem and ask for His guidance for all His people.
Steve:
IMO, the kids at risk phenomenon will not abate unless we work on the three main factors outlined by Farak Margolese-dysfunctional families, schools that avoid or discourage inquiry into hashkafic questions and communities across the hashkafic spectrum that unfortunately embrace social conformity as opposed to genuine growth in Avodas HaShem.
February 1st, 2008 12:49
Ron’s comment is 100% spot on for me. Nothing has negatively influenced me more than experiencing bad behavior by other Orthodox Jews. I try to keep this in mind as a warning for my own behavior .
The fact that many contemporary values seem to me to be superior to Torah values is much less of a stumbling block for me personally. I view an important part of the Jewish mission as making the chol (secular) kadosh (holy). So if I see a good value in the world, I look for ways to infuse it with a uniquely Jewish perspective and add it to the roster of torah behaviors. Alternatively, in some cases I simply trust that the accumulated wisdom of the Jewish people is more to be trusted than the decisions of my solitary mind.
February 1st, 2008 12:51
Maybe it’s just not for everyone? Why does it have to be a problem? Maybe you aren’t right about Orthodox Judaism being the one true religion? How about a little humility?
February 1st, 2008 12:55
We’re humble before G-d, not before His enemies.
February 1st, 2008 15:12
The “humility criticism” is more than a little ironic. As you know, Atheist, the participants in this forum share a religious belief that the Torah is for all Jews. That is the premise of the discussion. How we as Jews and individuals find our place in Hashem’s Torah and the world is what this discussion about.
Others who share your world view have learned, to one degree or another, to participate in this forum, even in a provocative fashion, without becoming the most unpleasant matter in the punchbowl and insulting everyone else at the party. Trolling, in contrast, is the antithesis of humility. Specifically, marching into a discussion where the participants all share a religious belief about the broad applicability of Torah and mitzvos to all Jews, and telling them that they’re all wrong about that belief and that they are not sufficiently humble, is not humility.
It’s not very nice, either, though I am sure your big, bad (but of course anonymous) blog is the epitome of supposedly ethical challenges to the orthodox Judaism you have, despite your oxymoronic pen name, abandoned.
February 1st, 2008 15:40
As you know, Atheist, the participants in this forum share a religious belief that the Torah is for all Jews. That is the premise of the discussion.
I thought the discussion was about “Why People Leave Torah Observance.” As such, I thought maybe my contribution would be relevant as someone who, you know, left Torah observance.
My comment was not intended as a troll or an attack but a plea that the Orthodox recognize that they don’t have a monopoly on the truth; that it’s possible they have it all wrong. Maybe those of us who leave do so because it’s the right thing to do! I’m not saying that’s 100% definitely the case, but it’s something that a humble person would at least consider.
I bet it’s never occurred to any of the Orthodox people thinking about this issue that what I bring up is even a possibility. That is the lack of humility I was referring to.
February 1st, 2008 15:51
Wrong blog, atheist. We’ve already been where you are, some us more than once, and found it wanting.
So no, humility is not the issue. We just think you’re fundamentally wrong – and as an atheist, what you really have is nothing, WADR, to say to us on the topic.
February 1st, 2008 15:54
I’m going to have to step in here. This blog is not meant for skeptics who try to draw others away from G-d and Torah.
February 1st, 2008 16:02
Ron said
“Others who share your world view have learned, to one degree or another, to participate in this forum, even in a provocative fashion, without becoming the most unpleasant matter in the punchbowl and insulting everyone else at the party.”
Uh-oh, the atheist has has manifested (gasp!) a lack of niceness? It’s evidently not bad enough for us that he professes to be an atheist.
February 3rd, 2008 00:00
I was wondering…Was this topic’s intent to pursue why BT’s go off the derech, why FFB’s go off the derech, or both? I’m sure there’s overlap for both categories, but some issues must be pertinent to each.
February 3rd, 2008 00:48
Jewish Atheist-One of the tenets that a practicing and observant Jew believes in that is that Torah observance,regardless of the hashkafic label, is the proper way of life for all Jews.
February 4th, 2008 13:02
Let’s face it, the biggest word in Atheist’s comment #2 was “maybe”. Which means, he’s not really as sure of his belief as he’d like us to believe. Or should I say, Beyond A Reasonable Doubt?
February 4th, 2008 15:16
There is something very important that we can take from Atheist’s point. We need to realize that all people have free will. There are midrashiam that indicate that as the times of Mashiach come close, there will be many that, lo aleynu, will slip away. So humility should lead us to understand that it is not necessarily within our ability to stop the disaster of people choosing to leave. And when we have grandious ideas that only if we would have a more open philosophy, or more sheltered k’hilos, or more affordable schooling, etc etc, than everything would be fine… such ideas are akin to avodah zara. What we need is to cry from the bottom of our hearts, “Hashem! Please help us because only You can help us!” Sometimes on can suffer from “Kochi v’otzem yadi” even in pursuits that would seem to be spiritual in nature. And that leads to a lot of problems. Not only does it make people feel like “mitzvah projects” but it can actaully lead to a decaying of hashkafos. For example, trying to make the Torah Hakedosha more appealing. We don’t have to be fanatical, but we should say it straight, we should show an example of how a Jew lives with idealism, and we should daven our haerts out. The rest is in His hands.
February 4th, 2008 16:27
I think a relevant contribution from Atheist would be an indication of whether Atheist left Torah observance for a reason indicated by Ora, Ron, or Steve, or for a different reason.
(For instance, if Atheist’s intellect indicates that the truth lies outside the orthodox understanding of Torah, is that in part due to the reactions Atheist received to hashkafic questions during religious schooling?)
Another relevant contribution from Atheist might be whether Atheist thinks there is a feasible way to gather information on who leaves Torah observance (and why) — a topic that was mentioned on another post.
February 5th, 2008 14:37
JA did leave a reply, but we have decided not to post it as some skeptics and atheists, not necessarily JA, try to lead people away from G-d and Torah and this is certainly not the forum for that.
February 5th, 2008 17:13
As one who has adopted some non-Orthodox practices, I don’t think any of the above reasons apply for me. Everyone with whom I’ve interacted in the different Orthodox communities I’ve been a part of has been nice. I enjoy the challenge of being observant in a non-observant world (such as having to not eat real food when in a restaurant with my non-Jewish/non-observant friends, or staying over on campus when I’m there for Shabbat). I’m also in an environment that generally views religious observance in a positive way (Divinity School is awesome. Teachers are more than happy to accommodate me missing classes for Jewish holidays or rescheduling exams that fall on Shabbat).
For me it really was prayer, and not being able to participate, and there not being enough opportunities for women’s prayer things, etc. Had I been in a place where there had been a Shira Chadasha style minyan or even a minyan that had a lot of singing for Shabbat services and was always led well, or a place that had weekly women’s kabbalat Shabbats and Torah readings, I might have stayed more completely in Orthodoxy. But the prayer where I was felt stifling, and I felt as though there was potential for there to be something beautiful, but alas it remained unfulfilled, and I was stuck in my disappointment, unable to do anything, being female.
As it is, I’m trying to bridge a gap between two worlds-since I try to keep as much of the Torah as I can in my situation, and I keep things like kashrut and Shabbat and tzniut, but I’ve adopted some non-Orthodox practices, like praying in a mixed minyan (but I don’t sit next to men). A Judaism like mine doesn’t exist in a movement.
So obviously I am not representative of most and some people might even debate whether or not I’m really “off the derech.” I just wish that the Orthodoxy I had access to allowed for more plurality in terms of women’s participation in prayer. (And sure, women could give divrei Torah and be co-chairs or run any of the activities in our Hillel, but for me that was no substitution for prayer, especially since I’m good at leading services and would like to use that skill of mine to contribute to the community.) I tried to find fulfillment in Orthodoxy, but the prayer issues was a big sticking point for me.
February 5th, 2008 21:54
Rachel: Is it possible to channel the desire to lead prayer to some position in chinuch, in a girl’s school maybe?