Unsafe at Minyan Speed

Posted on | October 15, 2007 | By Guest Contributor | 51 Comments

By Carl Aschkenasi

Dear Beyond BT–

Recently you posted a beautiful story which sought to provide mussar on judging favorably, specifically, judging favorably those who daven too fast. The subject was an elderly man who davened for the amud too fast. However, the author reveals that this speedy shaliach tzibur was a WWII veteran who was among the soldiers who successfully stormed the beach at Normandy, and in gratitude to Hashem’s protection came to every minyan for 60 years. At first glance, this anecdote beautifully underscores the importance of considering the “other side of the story.” But its emotional impact blinds the reader from recognizing the story’s subtext, that of the declining quality of prayer in the Orthodox world, and perhaps more concerning, our tendency to excuse it. The counterpoint of this yid’s commendable commitment to a minyan against his uninspired davening apparently leads to the conclusion that 60 years of shul attendance somehow excuses pedestrian prayer.

But it does not. On a second reading, or when the reader’s initial emotion subsides, the fallacy of this conclusion becomes obvious. This story is not one in which the protagonist is observed doing something odd, questionable, or suspect which in retrospect was righteous, rather it describes a wonderfully committed Jew whose feet apparently outstrip his lips in piety. It could be that more weight in judgment ought to be given to the merit of his feet, but that is not for us to say. If we make the reasonable assumption–informed by our own failings–that his fast davening reflects a paucity of kavanah, then we find this story favorably comparing 60 years of minyan attendance to 60 years of potentially transgressing halachas of proper davening, applying to both the individual and the shaliach tzibur!

But where this story fails in instructing on judging favorably, it excels in pointing out how lax we have become in our davening hygiene. The problem of speed-davening is rampant in the Orthodox world today, and not just in the “baal-ha-batish” or Modern Orthodox sectors as is commonly thought. More insidious than the cell phone issue, the perpetual war on shul-talkers, and the erosion of punctuality, the problem of rapid davening strips our prayers of meaning. Like none of these other impediments, the relentless rush of the congregation barreling through the seder ha’tefilah erodes the unity of the tzibur and precludes earnest concentration. Occasionally, it even necessitates compromises or interruptions in one’s personal recitations in order to fulfill the halachic requirements on the individual posed by tefillah b’tzibur. These requirements could be circumvented by davening alone, where at least you can tear through shacharis at your own speed, however then the very institute of the tzibur suffers. Could it be that our efforts to make tefilah b’tzibur less intrusive on our crowded schedules has cornered that institute out of any meaningful existence? If this trend is taken to its extreme, and we’re not far from it, minyanim will become so fast that any serious individual will eventually succumb to the frustration and daven at home, leaving the intransigent shaliach tzibbur alone at the bima at 6:00AM with nobody to frustrate but himself.

But the problem gets worse. We not only have a problem of overly rapid tefilah, but we also have a problem in chronically tolerating it. With our failure to acknowledge this issue and pull in the reins, a self-perpetuating hypocrisy has emerged which is far more damaging than imperfect kavanah. While we would never oppose the requirement to recite every word of the seder ha’tefilah, most would acknowledge (at least privately) that at today’s speeds it is almost impossible to do so. At first, particularly as baalei teshuva, we might conjecture that poor Hebrew skills or inexperience with the nusach are slowing us down. But over time, as we become fluent ourselves, we realize that the problem does not reside in the tongue. How can we let this endure? How long can we tolerate sitting next to each other in shul, each man an isolated island, the kehillah scattered like flotsam along the various pages of the siddur, some on Baruch She’amar, others on Yishtabach, but yet all unified by the unspoken recognition that the prevailing din of mumbling is really just plausible deniability masquerading as avodas Hashem?

The endurance of this problem is in my view linked to the burgeoning emphasis on chitzonius, outward appearances, occurring throughout the Orthodox world. We place inordinate value on the appearance of being learned (or at least of learning), ritually facile, pious, modest, or otherwise strict in observance. Small sartorial details, hairstyles, certain habits of speech, even subtleties of behavior and expression have become emblems of commitment to Torah and mitzvos–not merely incidentals to the process of spiritual growth, but ends in themselves. They are insignia, not adornments; they are affect, not effect. Moreover, they serve to define and express allegiance to one or more of the increasingly narrow religiopolitical divisions developing among our people. Because of their significance, these trappings are studiously cultivated to our detriment by both children and their parents in a way that was not important a generation ago, and certainly not to the “Greatest Generation” that stormed Normandy beach.

By tolerating impossibly fast davening, we are complicit in the emphasis of appearance over substance, not to mention in chillulei Hashem (desecrating G-d’s name), brachos le’vatlos (blessings said without purpose), and other halachic issues. We perpetuate the implication that shuckling is equivalent to worship, that the scan-and-mumble is equal to the intentional recitation. We teach our children that pedestrian observance is acceptable, and from there it is no great leap to conclude that payos make a chassid and that aping the trappings of frumkeit is itself an avodah. A practiced fluency with our treasured liturgy is a beautiful thing, but not when it is exemplified by prattling like a cattle auctioneer. If we compromise on the sanctity of our holy prayers, representing 3000 years of compiled longing and devotion—the craft of our Forefathers!*— then we succeed only in desecrating the memory of all the Jews who ever gave their lives just so they could daven at all. Who could better understand that than a veteran who triumphed at Normandy?

*Rashi on Shemos, 14:10.

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Category: Davening

Comments

51 Responses to “Unsafe at Minyan Speed”

Bob Miller
October 15th, 2007 @ 9:40 am

About davening tempo:

First, let me confess that I can become distracted at any speed.

Anyway, one problem is that every mispallel has a “natural” davening speed that works most effectively for him or her, and this best personal speed is not necessarily constant either. Still, at least for men, there is value in davening with the tzibbur, so all the people have to somehow combine to be a real tzibbur, meaning that a pace needs to be established for the group. This makes it almost certain that some will find it too fast and others will find it too slow, especially when the tzibbur includes people with diverse backgrounds.

That said, there should be minimum and maximum speed limits of some kind for any tzibbur, no matter what the shliach tzibbur or the others want to do. I’d say that:

1. The maximum speed is where the words can’t be spoken accurately by the average person without running them all together or leaving syllables out. Buzzing or humming instead of pronouncing actual words doesn’t cut it.

2. The minimum speed is where the the service drags along so slowly as to leave most of the tzibbur sitting or standing around waiting—to the point that daydreams or side conversations are inevitable.

One further point: We can’t read daveners’ minds (other than maybe our own). If we think other people are davening too fast to have kavvanah, this may be true or a complete illusion.
Mordechai
October 15th, 2007 @ 11:19 am

Good and important post.

Yeshiva/Yeshivishe minyonim usually don’t speed excessively. I believe some minyonim have signs at the omud listing (not sure if it is minimum, recommended, required or what, but you get the drift) times to be allotted for various parts of davening – e.g. krias shema – 3 minutes.

There is a problem however, even in some places where they wait for a Rav or similar for things like krias shema and shmoneh esreh, that at times there will be speeding in other parts of the davening.

I once heard a Rav (R. YMK) give a talk related to this topic. He used the phrase ‘athletes of the amud’ for those who can perform dazzling feats of leading the prayers at breakneck speeds.

In explanation/defense of some of the speeders it should be noted that there is a belief among some Chassidim that one should daven fast as then the yetzer hora/extraneous thoughts supposedly cannot enter and mar the prayers uttered. However that is not the mainstream Jewish position with regard to davening.
Mordechai
October 15th, 2007 @ 11:22 am

” the requirement to recite every word of the seder ha’tefilah”

It should also be noted that not every word printed in every siddur must be recited. Over the years printers have added many optional prayers to siddurim, not universally accepted, which need not be recited by all, as a marketing tactic (‘my siddur has more/all prayers’).
Albany Jew
October 15th, 2007 @ 12:36 pm

What is also kind of ironic for me personally is that in my Conservative shul growing up, the Shabbos davening would take 3 hours! Sure there was a 20-25 minute Rabbi sermon but I had no problem keeping up even with my limited hebrew. Nowdays, sometimes even if I switch to English I have no chance. I skip what I have to to do the Shema and Shemoneh Esrei with the Tzibur and go back later. I have even seen some brag about their speed.
Carl Aschkenasi
October 15th, 2007 @ 12:38 pm

Thanks to Mordechai for his comment. A good point, although I had in mind the “bare-bones,” required part of the nusach. It is interesting to me though that prayers such as the one for the State of Israel and for the US government, and in my shul, the yehi ratzon said for those who don’t speak in shul, are treated with a great deal of reverence, whereas the mystically inspired Yishtabach is read like the legal disclaimers in a car commercial. I’d be interested to know, incidentally, how many congregations are still regularly saying the tehillim mandated by the gedolei ha’dor for the situation in Israel…?
Fern
October 15th, 2007 @ 1:48 pm

I’m glad to know that some seasoned BTs and FFBs think that davening is sometimes too fast. I thought it was just me! I do daven at a Chassidic shul, so that may be part of it.

I just wanted to point out that “speed davening” may not be a new thing. I will try and find the article, but in the last week or so I read a story about a great Chassidic Rebbe who davened the shmonei esrei so slowly that by the time he had finished he was all alone in the shul. If I am remembering the story correctly, when the Rebbe was asked by his students why he davened so slowly, he chastised them for davening too quickly.
Ron Coleman
October 15th, 2007 @ 3:34 pm

Thanks for this post. It is worthwhile to separate issues like this: Yes, the man who davened for the amud is praiseworthy in many respects. But that doesn’t make tefillah that is too fast, not too fast.

I also agree with Fern that I’m not aware of any evidence that this is such a new phenomenon.
Mark
October 15th, 2007 @ 3:40 pm

Carl, my Rav said that we should stop saying the Tehillim since the situation has improved since Lebanon II and if we keep on saying it we will lose our sensitivity to it.

What we really need is just 7-8 minutes between Borechu and the start of Shomenah Esrai. This way we can say Shema and its brochas with some kavanna and start Shomoneh Esrai with the Tzibbur. At the Siyum HaShas they took about 9 1/2 minutes between Borechu and Shomoneh Esrai.

If you want to daven Brochas and Pesukei D’Zimra slowly, you need to come early and if you want to daven Shomoneh Esrai slowly you just have to accept the fact that you will rarely say Kedusha in the Shomoneh Esrai.

For a week day davening, without leining a reasonable speed is 45 minutes including brochas.
Steve Brizel
October 15th, 2007 @ 5:16 pm

Obviously, if you are a commuter in the worst sense of that term and need to catch a bus, train or carpool after an early minyan, unfortunately speed becomes important. OTOH, that means that your Shabbos and YT davening should take on more importance.
Carl Aschkenasi
October 15th, 2007 @ 5:29 pm

Dear Mark–

1. There are still POWs and people getting shelled on a (nearly) daily basis. We don’t need rote recitation to become insensitive.

2. If abrogating recital of tehilim for our endangered bretheren is appropriate because we might lose our sensitivity, perhaps the same should be done for aleinu, or ashrei, or tachanun…Does anyone really drench their bed with tears anymore?

4. Please re-read your statement: “if you want to daven Brochas and Pesukei D’Zimra slowly, you need to come early and if you want to daven Shomoneh Esrai slowly you…will rarely say Kedusha…”

This is, as I mentioned in my post, acceptance of the mediocre, unacceptable status quo. The spiritual consequences and the message it sends to our kids are in my view perilous.

Next thing you’ll tell me is that I should wear an outmoded black fedora just because everyone else is doing it!

–Carl Aschkenasi
Ron Coleman
October 15th, 2007 @ 5:35 pm

Carl, the “takanah” of these added tehillim is quite different from the acceptable nusach hatefillos of klal yisroel dating back thousands of years. There is no anshei keneses hagedolah and no one capable of telling us to drop or add prayers from our ancient liturgy.

I find the semi-permanent, largely rote addition of tehillim after davening really grating, though I guess if some rabbonim say we should still do it I can understand why it is done. But to me it’s as if we have changed our nusach.

The political subtext, frankly, is very clear. — both among those who “say” and those who “don’t say.” And those who leave while others “say.” Who has the authority to introduce new fissures into our community?

As stressful as things are in EY today, they are about 1000% better than they were for the previous millennium and a half or so.
M
October 15th, 2007 @ 5:39 pm

“outmoded black fedora” “just because everyone else is doing it!”

Your admonishment regarding tefillah is important and very well taken. I couldn’t help but smile at the cute oxymoron above, though. :)
Mark
October 15th, 2007 @ 5:50 pm

Carl,

Personally I’ve made great efforts in my Shul to slow down the davening, so I’m not quite a status quo type of guy.

On the other hand, davening with a Tzibbur requires one to m’vatel himself somewhat, which includes taking into consideration other people’s davening needs, such as getting to work, minds wandering at slow paces, etc.

I know that I can use plenty of improvement in my kavanna so I try to focus on where I can improve, given the constraints of the situation.

The suggestion of coming early to daven slower was some wise advice a good friend gave to me as he and I together try to improve the davening in the slow step-by-step pace that Tzibbur’s need to change.
Miriam P
October 15th, 2007 @ 7:42 pm

incidentally, how many congregations are still regularly saying the tehillim mandated by the gedolei ha’dor for the situation in Israel…? Mine is! Umm, I think. At least, the booklets are passed out, and they’re saying something. I have about enough time to say exactly one perek of tehillim (in Hebrew, I’m much faster in English) in just over the time it takes them to completely finish the little book, put them away, and head over to the Kiddush room.

I’m not in shul much — mostly just Yomtov, since I have littles, but my oldest son (age 10) is chazzan for such as they let him (aleinu, anim zemiros, adon olam) and he and I have had discussions about speed. I can just about say the whole aleinu before he cues the kaddish yasom after it, although I hear some random mumbles that aren’t quite impatient with him… and he says he has no plans to speed up as he gets older, because then he won’t be able to daven with kavannah, and he definitely wants to.
YM
October 16th, 2007 @ 11:56 am

This is a problem that I have been obsessed with at times. I live in a yeshivish community (Passaic) and it is a problem for me here, not to the extent I have experienced elsewhere, but still a problem. I have spoken to various shul Rabbis about it and bottom line, it is not going to change. If there are enough of us that want a slower davening, we will need to start our own minyanim.

If you are in Passaic and are interested, email me at jbirdme@excite.com.
Carl Aschkenasi
October 16th, 2007 @ 2:23 pm

YM–

Sh’koiach! Your history with this issue is very similar to mine, although it is particularly sad that even Passaic can’t provide a single minyan that davens appropriately *every* time they daven. I asked a shul rabbi once–his is for all purposes a kiruv/BT shul–and he smiled and patronizingly replied “maybe when your Hebrew reading gets faster you’ll be able to keep up.” Arrgh.

Like most observant Jews I have the weekday nusach essentially memorized and can rattle it off like anyone else; his response indicated complete abdication of responsibility and disinterest. I felt like Michael Moore meeting General Motors’ VP of public relations. I got up and left.

So get up and leave! Like YM, you can do it too! Get up and abandon lip service! Worshippers of the world, unite!

–Carl Aschkenasi
Albany Jew
October 16th, 2007 @ 3:05 pm

It is apparent that for some people dovening in a chore which should be gotten through as quickly as possible (sure, some have to get to work but it often doesn’t change much on Shabbos or on Sunday). I wouldn’t want a painfully slow minyan but I have experienced the 4 minute Pesukei D’Zimrah. Ridiculous!
Ron Coleman
October 16th, 2007 @ 3:30 pm

In Passaic, the Kollel Avreichim and the Yeshiva Gedolah have davening that is as slow as anything you could want. Every time. I have never davened at the Kollel Mitzuyonim b’Halahcha but I assume it is also very good, every time.

And yes, there is a difference between slow, purposeful davening and beginners’ minyan davening — I assume we’re not talking about the latter here.
David Linn
October 16th, 2007 @ 3:36 pm

Albany Jew said: I have even seen some brag about their speed.

When my wife was pregnant with one of our children, I davened at a “faster” hashkamah minyan on shabbos chol hamoed pesach. The baal koreh read Shir Hashirim at a ridiculous pace. Afterwards, I overheard someone complimenting him and adding that he had only heard one other person do it faster. The baal koreh took great offense and proudly stated that “No one does it faster than me!”
Dave
October 17th, 2007 @ 4:24 pm

One of the most irksome phenomena of BT shul life is the number of pretentiously pious people who insist that davening proceed at a glacial pace.

They never seem to realize that some people have jobs, families, places to go, or simply lives outside shul. This type of person has a need to talk at great length to Hashem which is exceeded only by his need to be certain that everybody else gets to see him doing it. It’s one of a number of reasons that I no longer attend morning minyans.

You want to daven longer? Good for you, Sunshine. Stick around after it’s over. Just don’t make everyone else do it, too.
yy
October 17th, 2007 @ 7:05 pm

kol ha’kavod, Dave, for representing the “bad guys.” The truth is that there DOES tend to be a pretentiousness in Bt’s insisting that their need for slower davening implies everyone else is less holy than thy. It’s a wild nisayon that H’ is sending klal yisroel that so many different yidden must find a way to live together. Bottom line: If you want to daven slow, either arrange a minyan of like paced daveners or realize that you’re seeking midas chassidus and should not expect it of others. Get there early, find a nice quiet corner, and DO it.
Albany Jew
October 17th, 2007 @ 8:18 pm

It may be good for the last two posters to read the blog again. We are talking about “impossibly fast davening” not davening that is somewhat expedient. Of course if someone wants to daven for over an hour in a weekday minyan he needs to make personal arrangements, but I am thinking about davening that goes about 1/2 hour with the words as one big blur. I would like to have some opportunity to think about what I am saying rather than run a 40 yard dash.

Also Dave: just curious, what are your other “number of reasons” that you no longer go to Minyan?
Carl Aschkenasi
October 17th, 2007 @ 10:37 pm

Dave (and sidekick “yy”)—

Your silly rant upset me until I realized that I ought to have compassion for a man who cannot read—or at least, can’t comprehend. In fact I was surprised the editors posted it. The intentions and motivations you attribute to others is also cause for sympathy: your spittle-laden blurt is a fascinating example of projection, opening up vistas of speculation as to the angst and whatnot hidden in your fundamentally beautiful albeit illiterate soul. Which is the greater pretention? Calling yourself a Torah Jew but not sincerely attempting to relate to G-d, or davening a little longer or a little extra, even when motivated by haughtiness? In the former, you are essentially a charlatain, whereas in the latter we might at the very least invoke “b’toch lo lishma bo lishma.” If your continued charlatanry, poorly concealed in the guise of championing tircha d’tzibur, causes you and similar “bad guys” to stay away from shul, perhaps that’s good for the Jews. It’d work for me. I am not asking for people to daven like the Geonim, but just to create an environment where the service of our lips is not lip service.

Much love and sympathy,
Your Sunshine
(Carl Aschkenasi)
Rabbi Yonason Goldson
October 17th, 2007 @ 10:59 pm

Remember the highway allegory: everyone thinks he is going at exactly the right speed.

Having said that, and allowing for legitimate reasons for davening fast (need to get to work early, less opportunity for day-dreaming, etc.), I think much of our problem is that we aren’t giving enough attention to what we are saying and why we are saying it. If we aren’t focussed on what we’re doing, naturally we will want to get it over with as quickly as possible.

A friend of mine once remarked: My kavanah has been getting better. I’m starting to have kavanah that I’m davening!
Mark
October 17th, 2007 @ 11:29 pm

I’d like to point out that we are talking about davening with a Tzibbur here and it probably makes sense to show some respect to our fellow Tzibbur-ites or else the whole discussion loses a lot of meaning. We’re not Tzadikim and I think we should take note of that.

I think Rabbi Goldson points to one of the little secrets of frum life. Davening with Kavanna is hard. In fact it’s not such a secret as the halacha has codified this in a number of places. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t daven with a minyan and thank G-d many people continue to go to minyan even though their Kavanna may need improvement.

Let’s try to strengthen each other and try to make our counterpoints in a respectful tone.
katrin
October 18th, 2007 @ 6:23 am

on a related topic, the davening in my shul for RH and YK was top notch this year.

there was no talking. people knew the words and joined in – there was a lot of heart-felt singing along. there were tears. there was a real sense of community, and of everyone in the shul being part of a community.

it could be this also happens outside of israel – but i’ve spent a lot of time in canada and the uk, and i’ve never seen such genuine, inspriring, kavana-filled praying.

i’ve been reading a lot of rav kook recently, and he makes the point again and again that a diaspora jew can never really get beyond his ‘individuality’ in his observance of mitzvoth.

it’s only when a jew is living in israel, and is truly part of a nation, that his davening – and his mitzvah observance generally – can obtain the meaning and the level they are meant to have.

the longer i live here, the more i’m seeing that jewish life in the diaspora – even ‘mega frum’ jewish life – is missing so many crucial ingredients.

most jews today, observant or not, really aren’t that interested in what G-d wants from them. they are interested in shoe-horning Hashem around their own desires – and that’s reflected across the board, whether it’s super-fast davening; excuses for not making aliya or justifications for why they need to spend thousands of dollars buying deluxe sheitals and palatial homes.

Hashem knows what’s really in everyone’s heart, regardless of appearances.
Bob Miller
October 18th, 2007 @ 9:28 am

Regarding the comments by Dave
October 17th, 2007 16:24, and Carl Aschkenasi
October 17th, 2007 22:37 :

I doubt that either the fast davening group or the slow davening group can really read the other group’s mind with such crystal clarity.

Both high or low speed can have high or low motives, so let’s not assume the other guy’s motives are low.
Dave
October 18th, 2007 @ 9:37 am

Carl:

Thanks for your compassion and pity.

As to your question about whether it’s more pretentious to call one’s self a Torah Jew but not sincerely attempt to relate to G-d, or drag out one’s davening out of haughtiness– you answered it yourself. What one does out of haughtiness is, by definition, more pretentious than what one does in one’s heart.

Again, I appreciate your genuine and heartfelt pity for those of us who just can’t reach your madrega. I’m sure everyone admires you as much for your obvious ahavas Yisroel as for your geshmakte davening.
Dave
October 18th, 2007 @ 9:52 am

AJ–

I understand your point, and I recognize that the article said “impossibly fast davening.” However, I also think I know what was intended (i.e., davening that doesn’t suit some BTs’ level of ostentatious piety). I can recall one BT loudly announcing to me how much he hoped that the guy leading the davening wouldn’t go too fast. Call me a cynic, but I don’t believe that people who complain about the speed of davening are really all that worried about Hashem– after all, they’re all free to stay later (they generally don’t).

As to the other reasons I no longer go to Minyan, I find it long, dull, and spiritually empty. People are noisy and, to be really honest about it (at the risk of another golden shower of compassion, love and pity from Carl), I doubt that God cares one way or the other whether I go or not. Plus, I’d rather spend the extra 45 minutes at home with my family.

Why do you go (assuming you do)?
Albany Jew
October 18th, 2007 @ 10:20 am

Dave,

Part of the reason to go to minyan is to daven at least certain parts of the service with the tzibur. When everything goes ridiculously fast that goal is at least subverted for many, if not completely lost. If you say they can stay later when no one is around, then they can stay home and get the same thing, why bother?

Besides my aforementioned reason, I go to give my thanks to Hashem for my many brachas, to follow his commandments, to be with the community, and to show my children (what I believe) is the correct way. I can do much of this at home too, I guess, but by making the effort to go to Shul you make it a “special time” for Hashem and yourself, don’t you think?

If you feel it’s dull and spritually empty (something that can change, it did with me by the way) of course you will also feel it is too long, but why kill it for those who don’t? You may go to a movie which you end up hating, but if you are in the theater you can’t fast forward it to the end.

Also: The noisy people are a problem also (unless you are talking about davening loud, different story) that needs to be addressed in your Shul.
Dave
October 18th, 2007 @ 11:12 am

Katrin:

You wrote that “most jews today, observant or not, really aren’t that interested in what G-d wants from them.” You went on to make reference to the inadequacy of Jews who don’t choose to live in Israel or who buy expensive shaitels.

I find this very offensive for a number of reasons. First, you don’t know what happens to be in most people’s hearts. Second, you really don’t know what God may want from them on a personal level. Third, I resent the implication that being a good American is inconsistent with being a good Jew. Fourth, a woman who chooses to cover her hair (like my wife) is often doing so with some real personal sacrifice– having a shaitel that looks nice is not asking a great deal under the circumstances.

It’s great that you’re so sure you know how, and even where, God wants you to live. It’s a little less great that you seem so convinced that God wants you to let everybody else know how and where they’re supposed to live, and also to castigate them for not measuring up to your and God’s standards.
David Linn
October 18th, 2007 @ 11:13 am

Dave,

While there certainly are, I would assume, people who loudly pronounce their wish that davening were slower they wan’t others to think they are tazadikim, I, personally, don’t think that is the case with the majority of people who say so.

I don’t proclaim to have any great level of kavanah in prayer and I am (very) guilty of actually often hoping that they don’t pick the “slow guy” to daven for the amud when I’ve got a meeting to make. That doesn’t mean there is a problem with the davening, maybe that’s a problem with me or at least it is possible that that is the case.

Staying later is really no solution (and at least where I daven there are plenty of people that do) because if the speed of the minyan does not get the individual to shemonah esrei with the tzibur, a question arises whether that person has davened b’tzibur. While that might not be an issue or problem for you, it is a concern for others that are making the effort to daven with a minyan.
Dave
October 18th, 2007 @ 1:22 pm

DL–

Your point is well taken. Nevertheless, I suspect that a fairly slow person could reasonably be expected finish his Shemonah Esrei by the time a reasonably quick leader reaches Kedusha in the repetition (I seem to recall that the Shulchan Aruch allows even longer, but am not certain). He will thus have davened with the amud, and need not insist that the amud go slower.

I think it’s also a given that there is no possible speed that will make everybody happy. Thus, it’s probably fair for the leader to go at a reasonable pace that takes into account the general sentiment of the congregation, and somewhat less reasonable for folks to publicly bitch about the speed. In the end, if the rabbi thinks the guy is going at the wrong speed, he can say something (I guess that’s his job, no?)

Finally, if one really doesn’t care for the speed at which the amud davens, one always has the option to stay home or go elsewhere.
David Linn
October 18th, 2007 @ 1:27 pm

“I think it’s also a given that there is no possible speed that will make everybody happy. ”

That’s probably true.
Dave
October 18th, 2007 @ 1:28 pm

AJ–

I reckon that your reasons are pretty satisfactory!

In response to your questions, no, I really don’t think that going to shul makes a special time for Hashem and myself, nor do I think that reading the same words at Him over and over could be any more interesting for Him than it is for me. Also, I agree with you that there’s no point in killing the experience for those who still feel the way you do. I should have included that in the reasons that I don’t go.
M
October 18th, 2007 @ 1:30 pm

Dave,

I appreciate your honesty and obvious sincerity.

I wonder if there might be another shul with a more suitable pace and Middot in your vicinity. Being part of a community in prayer is really special; perhaps it’s worth another try.
Albany Jew
October 18th, 2007 @ 2:24 pm

Thanks for responding Dave,

Some of the issues at hand are in your own answer. If you are just reading the words over and over you won’t find them very interesting (and therefore you might, for good reason, want that to end as quickly and painlessly as possible). You may still get credit for the mitzvah (that is not up to me) but ideally there should be some FEELING for the words as well.
Dave
October 18th, 2007 @ 5:18 pm

M/AJ:

You may well be right (both of you!). Part of the reason I visited this forum was to learn what other people thought of these issues, and I appreciate your willingness to write candidly about your views.

As to whether there’s another shul for me, there may well be (and I have given this some thought), but the words are pretty much the same, and, to be really candid, I don’t believe the words.

I also know (and don’t mean to be dismissive of) the standard Jewish response to this (i.e., it’s up to me to make these words relevant and meaningful). Alas, I simply do not find this a persuasive response, as it is predicated on the assumption that the problem is with me and not the words; my problem is that it is this very assumption that I question.
Carl Aschkenasi
October 20th, 2007 @ 11:50 pm

I am frustrated by the tenor of the recent responses to my post. I was hoping others would write in to express similar sentiments, and expected that others might criticize me for inflating a problem that is of low priority given the many issues that are facing Jews today—frum or otherwise. But I did not expect the entire thrust of my post to be hijacked by someone having a crisis of faith, one compounded by a wealth of cynicism. Nor did I ever think I would encounter someone more misanthropic than I am. Now that I have calmed down from my initial diatribe, one which, as Dave rightly pointed out, was severely lacking in ahavas Yisroel, I want to clarify/reiterate a few points:

My post has nothing to do with piety, ostentatious or otherwise. I am not interested in nor do I pretend to exemplify piety, at least not piety above the normative exertion expected of an ordinary Orthodox Jew. Jews, at least Orthodox Jews, are supposed to believe in God. Actually, some would say we’re not supposed to believe, we’re supposed to know there is a God. Part of the natural expression of this religious sentiment (see Halachic Man by R’ D. Soloveitchik) is prayer. The institute of prayer has, for better or worse, been set up in a fairly regimented fashion, with a vast array of laws governing it and a fairly inviolable liturgy. Within those bounds, an individual can find ways to express the special feelings he has towards the inscrutable God of Abraham. All I ask is that the Orthodox world follows those basic laws and recite the liturgy properly. It seems weird to me that all over the Jewish world I’ve seen guys with black hats and long tzitzis struggle over gemaras all day but then pray like they’re filing a tax return. It’s a contradiction that is so grating to me it motivated me to write what I did.

And as for ostentation, my post condemns ostentation, and furthermore it points out the general problem of chitzonius in the frum world today. My motivation writing this post was not to cast myself as a pious person in Dave’s eyes or anyone else’s—what benefit would accrue? I don’t know any of you! It’s precisely that anonymity that I thought would bring an added measure of sincerity to my point, the same anonymity that allowed me to unleash all that venom at Dave, which although richly deserved and pleasantly cathartic, was very wrong. I owe Dave an apology, but can we please put the issue of ostentatious piety away? It’s completely beside the point.

However, Dave says elsewhere: “I also think I know what [Carl in his original post] intended (i.e., davening that doesn’t suit some BTs’ level of ostentatious piety).” Nope. That’s not what I meant at all. Really. We say that we should daven like our lives depend upon it. Obviously that’s asking a bit much at 7:00 AM Monday morning. And Dave, as a father, radiology resident preparing for the board exam, and husband to another physician, I assure you I understand what it means to have a life outside the shul. But can’t we just say all the words we’re supposed to say? As for coming extra early and staying late, I do that when I can. But there’s no comparison to the experience of saying the same stuff alongside everyone else. Trying to finish Aleinu or Shir shel yom while others are chatting, powering up their cell phones, and clacking their tefillin box lids is an unpleasant way to finish shacharis.

Lastly, my post also has nothing to do with the reasons people experience shul burn-out, for lack of a better term. Davening is certainly one of them, and there are many others, but can we please save that for another post? Ironically, like Dave I’ve been suffering SBO (shul burn out) for months, and I have plenty of reasons too—but let’s consider one issue at a time. I think we can all agree that the interface between a public place of worship and the intensely personal nature of anyone’s (attempted) relationship with the Creator is naturally riddled with so many varying incompatibilities that there is no arrangement that can entirely fulfill everyone’s needs. Hence the old joke of the castaway Jew who built two shuls, one to daven in, the other never to set foot in. There has to be a way to insure that public davening is practiced in a sincere, transparent, honest fashion, such that the majority of people can experience the special satisfaction that group prayer can offer, without falling victim to either ostentation or cynicism or the pressing schedules of our lives.
M
October 21st, 2007 @ 7:23 am

I’m sorry if you feel “hijacked”, Carl. This is the nature of blogs.

And I’m sorry to say this, but you do sound pretentious and pious in your writing. I’m not sure you have the credentials to give Mussar in so ascerbic a fashion.

Frankly, I’m more concerned with your reaction to Dave (and continual put-down of others, such as fedora wearing long tzitzit garbers and other chitzoniut-centered pretenders).

You state that you wish for sincerity in prayer. Sincerity is usually a character trait, not a ritual-specific canned feeling.

I think if others would have sensed sincerity in your reaction to Dave’s very real issue, and if you would focus on the area in which you seek communal improvement rather than insert put-down comments of others, we might be inspired to hearken to your Mussar.

Since I am one of many faults, it is difficult for me to focus on your point when you assert your post was “hijacked by someone having a crisis of faith, one compounded by a wealth of cynicism.”

Is our focus in prayer “liturgy” and “pace”? Does Hashem really love the prayers of those who knock His other children away? Ridicule them? I’m no Rav, but I suspect a runaway pace is far preferable. Let us remember what Tefillah is…and bring Hashem, rather than our soapboxes, back into clear focus.

Additionally, if all you have seen “all over the Orthodox world” is prayer like filing a tax return, perhaps you haven’t been around enough. Plenty of shuls have problems, and plenty of them have beautiful, inspirational Tefillah. Perhaps if you brought increased balance into your way of perceiving the world, there would be less “grating”.

“but can we please put the issue of ostentatious piety away? It’s completely beside the point.”

You brought that up, Carl, and made your feelings known quite clearly in your second to last paragraph of the original post, as well as in subsequent comments.

I hope this discussion does continue along more productive lines.
YM
October 22nd, 2007 @ 11:55 am

Ron Coleman: I do daven at the Yeshiva on Shabbes morning, and the davening is the slowest in town, but they still only give a 1/2 hour for Pesukei D’Zimrah and speed up during the tefilah’s at the end of mussaf. I would still prefer something like Emunas Yisroel in Boro Park, but without having to become Chassidic in order to be part of the community.

Ultimately, as yy sort of aludes to, you have to pick a prayer community and there are tradeoffs involved.
mazeartist
October 22nd, 2007 @ 1:59 pm

The tehilim said after Tehilim shel yom often involve packing away the tefilin, taking off the taleisim, and putting on the jacket. As soon as the last psalm is completed, the men rush off to catch the bus or train to work.

I’m still angry at Hamas and Hezbollah for kidnapping Eldad Regev, Ehud Goldwasser, and GIlad Shalit- which prompted the gedolim to make the three tehilim mandatory.

My dislike is the long tahanun. I can never catch up to the rest of the minyan on this one. Mondays and Thursdays are the most frustrating of the weekdays, due to the amount of prayers. With the winter sun setting late, and work starting early, it leaves little time for breakfast and shaharit in between.

I cannot condone speed davening. I’d rather starve until lunch break. Still, I am frustrated at either davening on my own and having breakfast and getting to work on time, without hearing the Torah read… or hearing the Torah read in a speedy minyan where I am forced to skip certain lines in order to keep up, but still miss breakfast and the train to work.

As a result, I daven in comfort on my own. Half of my Shaharit is done at home, and half is done when i arrive early to the office. Hopefully, at some point, circumstances will allow me to daven every shaharit with a minyan… and Hamas will return Gilad Shalit to his family.
mazeartist
October 22nd, 2007 @ 2:01 pm

*i meant that in winter the sun rises late, and work still starts early ,leaving less time for shaharit davening, breakfast, and commuting to work.
Carl
October 22nd, 2007 @ 2:41 pm

M–

1. You make a good point about the nature of blogs. This is a new medium to me so I fully stand corrected on that score.

2. I re-read the second to last paragraph of my post. I do mention piety as a trait that can be subject to pretension. However, I did not anticipate that others would turn my own argument against me and say that those calling for slower davening are themselves guilty of pretension. Furthermore I admit that I am using the speed of davening as a proxy, an indicator of some measure of quality. Thus I roughly equate slower davening (note, not SLOW, just slower) with better quality. But I reiterate that in my opinion the whole point of whether I am putting on airs about overly pedestrian davening is beside the point and ad-hominem, and moreover silly insofar as I can’t really reap the benefits of pretensiousness on the internet anyway.

So, you are correct that I did bring up the concept of pretentious piety, a real phenomenon in my opinion, but my subsequent comments on the matter ocurred only when that concept was sophomorically turned back at me.

3. You also comment: Is our focus in prayer “liturgy” and “pace”? Does Hashem really love the prayers of those who knock His other children away? Ridicule them? I’m no Rav, but I suspect a runaway pace is far preferable. Let us remember what Tefillah is…and bring Hashem, rather than our soapboxes, back into clear focus. I agree, although I’m not trying to change the nusach. My response to Dave’s unfortunate comments was far too ascerbic–you are right–and I apologized and I meant it. “Kol yiarael areivim zeh l’zeh.” I allowed anger to cloud my judgement and I am sorry.

4. You also comment: “Additionally, if all you have seen “all over the Orthodox world” is prayer like filing a tax return, perhaps you haven’t been around enough. Plenty of shuls have problems, and plenty of them have beautiful, inspirational Tefillah. Perhaps if you brought increased balance into your way of perceiving the world, they would be less “grating”.” I agree there are shuls with beautiful tefila. But I really do think I see a trend–yes, I am generalizing here–toward “chik-chak” davening. I call it like I see it. Should I have a more balanced view of the world? Probably. But the passuk “b’tezedek tishpot amitecha” does not mean judge your bretheren as righteous, nor does it mean don’t judge, rather it means judge! and be fair, but if there is a problem, say so.

5. Additionally, you open by saying I sound pretentious. That’s pretty painful and also difficult to dispell. I don’t know how to respond to that. My frustration with insincere davening (or what appears to be insincere using speed as an indicator) is real, and I’m not alone. A lot of positive reponses have been sent my way. If it is my tone or my writing, I am sorry that I was not born into a home where English was the primary language, so I learned to speak and write in a more formal fashion. If it is my quick anger at Dave, then all I can do is apologize and read Iggeret Ramban. I really do feel sorry for him, but I grow impatient when his expressed sentiments distract from the effect I wanted my post to have. But then again, perhaps that’s just blogging for you.

6. Finally, you close by stating your wish that this thread could become more productive and on-point. I don’t read sarcasm there, I hope I’m right on that, and I wholeheartedly agree.
M
October 22nd, 2007 @ 4:05 pm

No sarcasm intended at all.

The point of the post is an important one, and discussion here on BeyondBT is a great springboard for reflection and change within ourselves. It is a very worthwhile topic.
YM
October 22nd, 2007 @ 4:39 pm

Anyone who thinks that davening at home is an acceptable alternative to davening with a minyan that davens too fast should definitly talk to their Rabbi before deciding to do so. As annoying as fast davening is (for those of us who prefer a slower pace), the alternative of weakining the community and separating onself from the community is not a step that should be taken without rabbinic consultation.
YM
October 22nd, 2007 @ 4:45 pm

Katrin: most jews today, observant or not, really aren’t that interested in what G-d wants from them. they are interested in shoe-horning Hashem around their own desires

Actually, my Rov says this all the time – this is probably the greatest challenge in serving hashem – not just today, but for all time. It’s a 24x7x365 battle for ones entire life.
Ron Coleman
October 22nd, 2007 @ 6:01 pm

I have to say that someone who finds half an hour for pesukei d’zimrah insufficient, even on Shabbos, is simply seeking a level of commitment to davening that is so far beyond from what everyone else is looking for that, with all due respect, there is really no basis for criticism. It’s an incredible avodah to daven that carefully, but it is simply not a standard that you can reasonably hold the majority of us, or, evidently, even gedolim who are heads of leading yeshivas, to.
mazeartist
October 22nd, 2007 @ 9:38 pm

On Shabbat, I can daven and learn to my heart’s content, no matter what pace the shaliach tzibur chooses to go with. Likewise, on Sundays I also try to make the minyan.

I can only hope that HaShem can balance my failure to make the daily minyan with the other daily mitzvot that i continue to filfill.
Rabbi Shmuel Simenowitz
October 24th, 2007 @ 2:07 pm

I once heard a Rav (R. YMK) give a talk related to this topic. He used the phrase ‘athletes of the amud’ for those who can perform dazzling feats of leading the prayers at breakneck speeds.

precious – we have a minyan near us which can go from zero to borchu in under six minutes flat!

It’s a problem – I daven from the amud quite often and I find myself davening faster than I’d otherwise like in the name of “tircha d’tzibur” (so as not to be onerous to the congragation) As one commentator said tachanun is especially challenging at breakneck speed – if I’m not the shaliach tzbur I find myself sating tachanun well into the dead time calling up the aliyos.
We say the monthly portion of tehillim each day – to me it’s like dessert and I’m loathe to rush through it but if I’m in a hurry, I’ll use the time to take off and put away my tefilin. (I finally got a tehillim that lays flat unassisted – it helps :)
But the unwritten (OK so its written) undercurrent in this thread seems to be that everyone feels the guy who davens faster than him is superficial and robotic and the guy who davens slower is some lovebombed BT. People who either like to or have to daven slower should get an early start either in shul or at home (if you’ve been learning in the am you’ve said birchos hatorah anyway). Perhaps finding a minyan whose davening speed is more compatible with your own (or is nearer to the office) might help.
Mark
October 25th, 2007 @ 9:59 am

I just davened at a Nusach Sefard minyan in KGH where Shacharis on a Thursday took 70 minutes. It was great, but the time from Borechu to the start of Shomoneh Esrai was only 6 minutes, where 7-8 minutes would have made it close to ideal.

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