Comments on: Do As I Do

By: Esti

Esti — Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:11:52 +0000

“Devorah” thank you, that was a great article! I am most in awe of the large number of BT parents (and grandparents!) in our neighborhood who have wonderful children with amazing middos, and I see that it’s a tremendous amount of work, but of course rewarding. The most glaring similarity I see in the family dynamics is that nearly all the kids are completely aware that the parents are BTs, that they know their parents make mistakes, lots of them, and that the parents admit them freely but that still doesn’t diminish the respect they get from their kids. I’m inspired by the blatant honesty that I see the parents display, and I think that’s what contributes to the kids’ having such great middos and being such exemplary people.

By: Bob Miller

Bob Miller — Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:55:32 +0000

Here, by the way, is an interesting new article related to BT’s and kiruv:

http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2007/08/30/hard-questions-about-kiruv/

By: Ron Coleman

Ron Coleman — Thu, 30 Aug 2007 03:43:14 +0000

Who’s to say?

By: Bob Miller

Bob Miller — Thu, 30 Aug 2007 01:27:37 +0000

Do we allow rhetorical questions?

By: Ron Coleman

Ron Coleman — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 21:44:36 +0000

Mark, it was a rhetorical question!

By: ChanaLeah

ChanaLeah — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 21:24:22 +0000

Thanks for this post, “Devorah”. I can relate, as we became frum when our children were older, and they experienced the same sudden change of rules as you describe.

B”H for the assistant Rabbi and his wife in your story. It is a fortunate community that has frum people willing to reach out and befriend the floundering children of BT’s and keep them on track.

By: Michoel

Michoel — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:30:50 +0000

“Devora” (and any other children of BTs that may be out there),
I highly encourage you to try to participate in this blog to whatever degree you can. Your perspective is a valuable resource for the rest of us.

By: Bob Miller

Bob Miller — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:05:03 +0000

“My son, the blogger” ?

By: David Linn

David Linn — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:52:35 +0000

I hate to quote my own stuff (ok, I love to quote my own stuff) but I think this excerpt from a precious post also addresses the issue:

“Great Expectations and Vicarious Living

Some BTs bemoan “lost time”, meaning that they feel like they wasted a good portion of their lives doing non-Torah things. A symptom of this “lost time” syndrome is that one might feel, perhaps subconsciously, that since their children were born into frum homes, they will direct their lives in such a manner as they think they would have lived if they were born into frum homes. One might also think that each of his children should be the gadol hador as opposed to being the best chaim or chaya he\she can be, living up to their personal potential and not to our “wannabe” dreams. The result of this vicarious parenting approach is often undue pressure, unrealistic expectations and the squelching of individuality.”

By: Mark

Mark — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:29:51 +0000

Ron, Why do you say I ask too many questions? And if you say…,I’ll ask you the following…

I think this goes a little beyond living vicariously in that a person can view it as correcting their own spiritual deficiencies.

Is it incorrect to measure our spiritual success to some degree on the spiritual accomplishments of our children? Isn’t that one of our spiritual missions, to nurture spiritually oriented children?

The issue of wanting spiritually accomplished children is is not limited to BTs, although it may be more acute because we may perceive ourselves as having more spiritual deficiencies in TAG (Torah, Avodah, Gemillas Chasadim).

By: Ron Coleman

Ron Coleman — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:08:13 +0000

Mark, you ask too many questions!

Parents live vicariously through their children, unfortunately, in all sorts of families. It’s a fair point that we should look out for that. On the other hand, I know I will never have the benefit of “learning Torah on a blank slate,” as the Mishna in Avos says, and I hope and expect my children to achieve what I did not, and am making a substantial investment in their being able to do so.

But they are not mini-me’s, and ultimately I can only give them tools, encouragement and, I hope good manners!

By: Bob Miller

Bob Miller — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:58:48 +0000

At some point the perceptive “tinok shenishba” grows up and frees him/herself from ideological “captivity”, slowly or quickly. The whole methodology of taking one’s spouse and/or kids along for this ride has been underexplored, so this article is very important.

By: Martin Fleischer

Martin Fleischer — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:02:30 +0000

Deborah,

This is a great article! I can really relate to things you said in it…When you become more Frum as your kids are getting older, it can be a bit tough, but my advice is not to give up, ever. But you have to understand that hopefully, they will come around when they are ready to…just like you, I, and all of us BT’s did!

Marty

By: Steve Brizel

Steve Brizel — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:48:42 +0000

This is a great column. Open communication, discussion and honesty goes a lot further in creating a healthy home stmosphere and one where Torah, Avodah and Gmilus Chasadim are not just taught, but caught.

By: Mark

Mark — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:48:12 +0000

Great article Devorah. You bring up an interesting situation.

According to many, most of us are considered Tinok SheNishba, (capitive from birth), meaning that we are not fully responsible for our life choices before becoming frum, because we did not have the correct information to make the right choices.

On the other hand you point out that we sometimes strive to make our children the paradigms of observance to compensate for our own perceived failure in our observance.

So do we disbelieve that we are not Tinok SheNishba? Or do we believe that if we were Frum for Birth we would ourselves be the paradigm of observance? Or is something else going on here?