Since we’re choson and kallah, then I guess it’s appropriate that I worked on a sheva bracha today.

CU Later

Well my day kept me hopping. You?

Your kallah

I have decided not to post anymore in my current thread, it’s giving me a headache, so I thought I’d post in yours instead.

Having a nice day?

Your choson

One of my kids’ schools referred to these subjects as Limudei Chachma, which I felt was much more respectful label for studying Hashem’s world.

Regarding your points. Taking into account the vast amount of knowledge out there I think the actually points of conflict are relatively few. And even some of the few aren’t really conflicts.

As to time allocation. We choose schools that reflect our values and trust them to handle this. As adults, Halevi our time should be so well allocated to Torah. Unfortunately for many of us time spent learning something that’s not exactly Torah but can certainly enhance our understanding of Torah and/or bring us closer to Hashem is a step up from many of the other we spend our time. But even if I learned all day, I believe some amount of worldy knowledge would be required just to more fully understand my learning.

Ron, Actually, I was going to make that point. That’s exactly what great poskim do. The Chofetz Chaim’s psak regarding the Bais Yaakov concept comes to mind.

However, I think that MO is proactive in this area while others are more passive, even timid. When Eliahu said, “The idea is that MO tries to walk the line in many areas” I think he articulated this point, though maybe not with the same intent.

In terms of what brings us closer to G-d, secular study advocates say that literature, especially the classics give us a better understanding and appreciation of people and the human condition.

On the practical front, material like the 7 Habits and NLP (which is used by Rabbi Zelig Pliskin) gives us access to good time management and communication skills which is important in become better Torah Observant Jews.

The major problem with a full embrace of secular knowledge is:

1) In some/many cases it conflicts with Torah
2) It is distracting and in most cases our time is better spent learning Torah, if getting close to Hashem is our primary goal.

Assuming that not all secular knowledge is Jewishly useful (that is, that not all secular knowledge promotes a closer personal connection to HaShem)—

Does a Jew need some in-depth Torah education up front to be able to tell the Jewishly useful part of secular knowledge from the harmful part (that creates a barrier between that Jew and HaShem)? If so, how much in-depth Torah education and of what type?

Also, is there a middle category between useful and harmful, and what falls into that category?

CM=Certfied Mail
DMZ = Demilitarized Zone

Study of physics, neurology, biology, horticulture, etc etc are all ways to increase knowledge and appreciation of Hashem’s world.

Does this mean all secular knowledge or some? If some, how do we make the necessary distinctions?

1) Secular knowledge is useful in its own right to help us get closer to Hashem.
2) We should not be isolated in our own communities, but rather we should be out in the world helping to bring about its Tikkun (completion/correction).
3) The State of Israel at this juncture of history is critical to the Jewish People and should be strongly supported, even if most of the people and most of the government is not Torah observant.

My friend agreed that observance of halacha is paramount, but felt that heavy involvement in the secular creates the risk that a person will slacken in their observance. That’s obviously not the ideal, it’s just a reality.

Look at it this way-In the days of Temple, immersion in a Mikvah served two purposes-removal of ritual impurity and allowing marital relations. Since the destruction of the Temple, the primary purpose of Mikvah is that of allowing marital relations. When a man goes to the Mikvah on Erev RH and YK, it is to enhance his sense of Kedushah and Taharah. Those who go to the Mikvah on Erev Shabbos or even on Shabbos Morning do so for the same reason and possibly because of the residue of a well known Machlokes Tanaim and Rishonim as to whether Takanas Ezra was completely abolished or remains in some limited effect.

JT’s comments regarding Niddah do not represent MO in any way. They represent the mistaken opinion of some of JT’s MO friends.

I feel that your talking points in general are not appropriate for this discussion. They represent possible problem areas for some MO people but say nothing regarding MO itself. Thus, these points may be a good outline for an OU symposium on problems within MO, but not for our discussion understanding MO.

The definition —> Like all orthodox, MO is bound by Rambam’s 13 principles of faith and adheres faithfully to the Shulchan Aruch. So, you may ask, what’s the difference, where does the “modern” come in? Good question. As Rav Schachter so succinctly puts it, MO evaluates the time and place to make sure the correct chapter of the SA is being applied.

There’s no changing halacha, there’s no abrogation of halacha, and there’s no elimination of mitzvot. And in fact, Rav Schachter explains, going through this process can actually lead to more accurate halachic observance. And the same concept may be applied to minhagim.

That combined with a different hashgafic outlook in handful areas; Israel, Daas Torah, Worldy knowledge, etc., pretty much sums it up.

Married life, and Kallah class, educate far differently. If she does decide to take on MO observance (not the kind made up of a fantasy wish list of desired items), she will obtain a more realistic picture and perspective when she needs to. Or even now.