Ron was very gracious and I don’t want to restart this whole thread, but there are certainly cases and actions that some people do take that can be likened to the actions and thinking of the meraglim.

I believe that what Steve just stated and I agree with is not castigating people as meraglim, but saying that it’s fair game to inject the lessons from the Chet Hameraglim into a discourse about the subject of Aliyah.

With your statement,”…the meraglim story and its lessons are pertinent…” I think we pretty much agree.

One phrase I still remember from the army is “it depends on the situation”. This makes me reluctant to throw out pejoratives against Jews who could not make aliyah so far. Each such Jew has to make his/her own appropriate cheshbon hanefesh; the meraglim story and its lessons are pertinent, but not to all in exactly the same way.

Nobody would denay that one is Mekayem a Mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisroel. I fail to see how you can take issue with using this parsha to encourage people to introspect, using the narrative of the meraglim, in order to understand why they are not fullfilling this particular mitzvah.

For all the years I lived there and wanted to be here I was often able to contain the dissonance it created most of the time. That is, except when it came to this Parsha (and maybe also Lech Lecha) at which time I was a basket case.

The insight you brought about spouses and Aliyah is also quite valid. This is something that should not be attempted unless both are on board. It doesn’t have to be to the same degree, but it’s often not a pretty scene when one spouse “drags” another. I would extend the same logic to older children as well.

We actually had a Brady Bunch style family meeting before putting our house on the market. We voted and everyone over 13 got a vote and veto power.

WADR to our moderators, I believe that the Chet Hamraglim belongs in the discourse on this blog whenever we discuss the pluses and minuses of living in EY, but especially as a reminder for us not to think that we all ultimately should think about finding a place for ourselves in EY, as opposed to either thinking too easily and assuming that such a place exists or that such a place does not exist. IOW, we should feel some discomfort when we read this Parsha and not view it as some sort of RZ piece of demagoguery or incitement against those of us who are here in the Golden Galus for even the most seemingly legitimate reasons. To be blunt, I think that the Parsha of the Mraglim is designed to make us feel uncomfortable and ask ourselves whether we have made the right decision for ourselves or our children in not thinking about living in EY with more seriousness. I would contend that one can offer the not so radical interpretation based upon Rashi and Ramban that we cam learn that even the greatest leaders can err when they substitute their calculations and opinions for those of HaShem and deviate from His precise instructions.

You had me till the last sentence. Dina, argumentation by charming anecdote is not too useful. That’s one reason I avoided “specifics” — you and I are both talking, in general, about well known phenomena. Delightful stories of warm-hearted Jews who live all over the world fill up the Judaica shelves.

As long as we’re going for precision was he the store owner or merely an employee?

If he was only a salesman I find the ethics of his advice to you problematic as well as halakhically questionable.

I do admire the idealism and mesiras nefesh of all families who choose to live in E”Y. I guess my point was that it is no mitzvah to undertake this move with one’s eyes closed, at the possible expense of one’s children. It seems much more doable if one opts for the non-charedi world, since there are more options in that society.

And, to Menachem and Alter and others who write about the incredible middos of the people in E’Y: Please stop!! This is of course exactly what makes me yearn to be there! But out of concern for my children, I can’t just up and go. I think those in E”Y think we chutznikim just want to live comfortable lives. Actually if I was living my life just for myself, I might just be there right now. But with parenthood comes responsibility–to know oneself and one’s children and one’s limitations.

I wrote this in an unclear way , and it was therefore understood as the opposite of my intention. I was referring to living in America, as opposed to Israel, (“and even there” =America), and accepting a open, but charedi approach, from the choices which are available in America. I fully agree with the rabbonim and mechanchim in the JO article, which I myself linked to, that it is better not to go to Israel, than to go there and not to conform. As mentioned in the article, sending a mixed message can create a disaster for the chinuch of one’s kids, and this also applies in the US to the extent that one gives children a different message from his or her school.

“The common denominator here is that all of the above are about “yourself”, not “you just copying someone else”

I agree. A person shouldn’t use individuality as an excuse to not grow in Torah. I also think that someone fully living the charedi lifestyle can certainly ” be themselves”. Furthermore, I agree as other commenters here wrote, that the more one gets to know different individuals and communities in Israel from up close, one will see some examples of diversity, or how one can adjust . My comments were in the sense of what IIRC R. Yaakov Kaminetsky once said about himself, “ I’m my own person”, as opposed to his being the stereotypical image of what a person or a gadol is supposed to conform to(if there even is such a concept).

I was emphasizing the times when conformity can be problematic. Wearing a particular type of shirt to satisfy societal conventions, in certain situations, may be the reasonable and only correct thing to do, or sometimes, it might a reflection of “being someone else”, and have absolutely nothing to do with a Torah transformation. The value of external transformations and adopting to societal norms depends on the person, and on the specific situation. If in doubt personally, then the only choice is to ask someone.

What I am emphasizing is that we should not minimize, nor deflect attention from the serious problems relating to excessive conformity in America and in Israel, as well as the economic situation. (I viewed the comments on the thread as adding balance or putting things in perspective, rather than actually doing the former) How we should solve these issues or at least adjust to them , we can(and I think, should) speculate about , but ultimate decisions will obviously be done by a particular community’s gedolim. The articles I linked to, I think gives a good understanding of the core issues involved in both of the above topics, as written from a charedi perspective.

“I know plenty of Good haredim that do part time work and also learn. Everyday there are more ads in the papers for haredim to take courses to learn a parnassa. The situation is slowly changing. We must realize that the gedolim like Rav Steinmen, Rav Kanievsky and Rav Elyashiv all agree with the system here(atleast in the general sense). They are the Gedolim and they definitely know more than me so whom am I to argue. For the most part, most agree with this”

I would add to this, that discussing isn’t always arguing. There are strengths and weaknesses, and complexities to making community decsions, which by definition are made as a whole, and as noted by Rabbi Klien , there is some amount of slow change and adaptation even within the confines of the general system.

As I said above, I see positives and negatives in different approaches within the Orthodox world. If one lives in the charedi world and desires its benefits, then it makes sense as well to accept and respect as a package deal all of the community’s decisions, whether or nor one personally likes those decisions. In any event, the “grass is always greener on the other side”, and the other side has its weak points as well, which one would also have to accept.