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	<title>Comments on: Do BT Parents Risk Kids Off the Derech?</title>
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	<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2007/01/29/do-bt-parents-risk-kids-off-the-derech/</link>
	<description>Baalei Teshuva / Baalei Teshuvah and Other Growth Oriented Jews</description>
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		<title>By: Judy Resnick</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2007/01/29/do-bt-parents-risk-kids-off-the-derech/comment-page-2/#comment-387676</link>
		<dc:creator>Judy Resnick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 22:23:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=621#comment-387676</guid>
		<description>There are a lot of reasons why kids go off the derech.  FFB parents deal with this as well as BT parents.  The simple answer is that if things are going very wrong at home, kids will want to leave, and that is universal.  If every night parents are screaming at each other, or throwing things, or if some type of abuse is happening (verbal abuse being damaging too), a kid&#039;s first reaction will be, &quot;Get me outta here.&quot;  If there is nowhere else to go, the kid will head for the street.  If the home is not a haven from the world but a living hell then the kid will just run.  The best way to keep kids from leaving home in general is to make home the place of refuge from the world&#039;s blows; if it&#039;s just the opposite then kids are not going to stay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a lot of reasons why kids go off the derech.  FFB parents deal with this as well as BT parents.  The simple answer is that if things are going very wrong at home, kids will want to leave, and that is universal.  If every night parents are screaming at each other, or throwing things, or if some type of abuse is happening (verbal abuse being damaging too), a kid&#8217;s first reaction will be, &#8220;Get me outta here.&#8221;  If there is nowhere else to go, the kid will head for the street.  If the home is not a haven from the world but a living hell then the kid will just run.  The best way to keep kids from leaving home in general is to make home the place of refuge from the world&#8217;s blows; if it&#8217;s just the opposite then kids are not going to stay.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Fleischer</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2007/01/29/do-bt-parents-risk-kids-off-the-derech/comment-page-2/#comment-36742</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Fleischer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=621#comment-36742</guid>
		<description>Azriela,

O WOW!!! After reading your post above about the book (where you addressed me) I realize you are the author!!!  Very good book indeed, but, as I said above to Chaya H., if one is a Baal Teshuva who becomes more Frum than the other partner, I don&#039;t know if the &quot;mixed&quot; marriage can work in all cases.  I hope it can!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Azriela,</p>
<p>O WOW!!! After reading your post above about the book (where you addressed me) I realize you are the author!!!  Very good book indeed, but, as I said above to Chaya H., if one is a Baal Teshuva who becomes more Frum than the other partner, I don&#8217;t know if the &#8220;mixed&#8221; marriage can work in all cases.  I hope it can!</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Fleischer</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2007/01/29/do-bt-parents-risk-kids-off-the-derech/comment-page-2/#comment-36741</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Fleischer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=621#comment-36741</guid>
		<description>Chaya H:

I read the book, believe it or not, 6 years ago (I took it out of the library in Bay Terrace, I believe).  It opened my eyes, but, remember, I wasn&#039;t as Frum then as I am now!  I&#039;m not sure that book can really work in a home where one of the partners is MUCH more Frum than the other one.  Still, you can&#039;t rush it with your family.  Each person, on his/her own, will find Hashem step by step, we hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chaya H:</p>
<p>I read the book, believe it or not, 6 years ago (I took it out of the library in Bay Terrace, I believe).  It opened my eyes, but, remember, I wasn&#8217;t as Frum then as I am now!  I&#8217;m not sure that book can really work in a home where one of the partners is MUCH more Frum than the other one.  Still, you can&#8217;t rush it with your family.  Each person, on his/her own, will find Hashem step by step, we hope.</p>
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		<title>By: Albany Jew</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2007/01/29/do-bt-parents-risk-kids-off-the-derech/comment-page-2/#comment-36731</link>
		<dc:creator>Albany Jew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=621#comment-36731</guid>
		<description>Azriela,

Welcome to the blog! My brother (not frum) actually bought your book (What do you mean...) for my Mom and she really liked it. My family had Shabbos lunch at your house a couple of years ago when you were working on the book. It was much needed. Thanks and sorry to be OT. 

PS It is important to take anything you read in the media with a grain of salt, there is so much that inaccurate and plenty of Lashan Hora.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Azriela,</p>
<p>Welcome to the blog! My brother (not frum) actually bought your book (What do you mean&#8230;) for my Mom and she really liked it. My family had Shabbos lunch at your house a couple of years ago when you were working on the book. It was much needed. Thanks and sorry to be OT. </p>
<p>PS It is important to take anything you read in the media with a grain of salt, there is so much that inaccurate and plenty of Lashan Hora.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2007/01/29/do-bt-parents-risk-kids-off-the-derech/comment-page-2/#comment-36664</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 07:02:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=621#comment-36664</guid>
		<description>Azriela, I would agree and only extend your comments to being interviewed by any reporter for any purpose!  They always get it wrong.

Jaded, thanks for the flattering and brilliantly brave comment, but I will leave the translation of towering works of Torah erudition to people actually erudite in Torah!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Azriela, I would agree and only extend your comments to being interviewed by any reporter for any purpose!  They always get it wrong.</p>
<p>Jaded, thanks for the flattering and brilliantly brave comment, but I will leave the translation of towering works of Torah erudition to people actually erudite in Torah!</p>
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		<title>By: Rabbi Dovid Schwartz</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2007/01/29/do-bt-parents-risk-kids-off-the-derech/comment-page-2/#comment-36658</link>
		<dc:creator>Rabbi Dovid Schwartz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 05:46:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=621#comment-36658</guid>
		<description>Azriella wrote that pre-OTD/at risk kids
need to
&lt;i&gt;feel that they can develop as individuals, with a bit of rebellion in the mix? &lt;/i&gt;

I think that this is essential for adults and teens, FFBs and BTs alike.  

Years ago I gave a talk @ the JHC&#039;s Long Island Center entitled &quot;Hasidism; Reformation or Reaffirmation?&quot;  The upshot was that as a movement it was both.  I think that for many an essential component of the dynamic that drove their return to Yiddishkeit was not being &quot;rebellious&quot; but being &lt;i&gt;revolutionary&lt;/i&gt;, of being part of a counter-culture that would shake up the establishment and it&#039;s wholly inadequate and corrupt way of doing things.  

IMO this is why the Yeshiva world from the mid-40s to the early seventies was more vital and dynamic (and produced more outsatnding people) than it is today (despite being much smaller).  Before it became the new &quot;establishment&quot; IT was a REVOLUTIONARY movement.

Here&#039;s a partial list of Jews of Genius over the last several centuries who revolutionized, reinvented and reinvigorated without betraying tradition: 

The Ba&#039;al Shem Tov, the Kotzker Rebbe, RSRH, Rav Nachman, Rav Yisroel Salanter, Rav Chaim Brisker, his grandson RYBS, Sara Schnirer, Rav Meir Shapiro, Rav Kook, the Satmar Rebbe, Der Alter fun Nivardhok, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Kook and Rav Hutner.

So much of what seems to be ancient, mass-movement Judaism today owes so much to these trailblazers that it&#039;s hard to imagine that they were ever considered noncomformists much less visionary revolutionaries.  But read your (unbiased) history and you&#039;ll discover that nearly all were extremely controversial when they first burst upon the scene and met with stiff opposition.  Some continue to be controversial today.

Not that we can wave a wand and fabricate a visionary revolutionary leader out of thin air but as the OTD crisis grows to pandemic proportions cutting across all socioeconomic strata, denominations and scholarship levels it may be that this phenomenon represents more than a widespread social pathology.  As an expression of a deep-seated dissatisfaction with Yiddishkeit in it&#039;s current incarnation it may betoken a whole generation&#039;s collective soul demanding a new movement, the next Chasidic/Mussar/Lomdishe fill-in-the-blank_____ revolution, a reinvented Yiddishkeit that speaks to their unique time and place while remaining firmly rooted in the Mesorah.

The trick is to be conservative without being preservative, to be orthodox but not mere oxen pulling the yoke of popular opinion.  Easier dreamed for than done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Azriella wrote that pre-OTD/at risk kids<br />
need to<br />
<i>feel that they can develop as individuals, with a bit of rebellion in the mix? </i></p>
<p>I think that this is essential for adults and teens, FFBs and BTs alike.  </p>
<p>Years ago I gave a talk @ the JHC&#8217;s Long Island Center entitled &#8220;Hasidism; Reformation or Reaffirmation?&#8221;  The upshot was that as a movement it was both.  I think that for many an essential component of the dynamic that drove their return to Yiddishkeit was not being &#8220;rebellious&#8221; but being <i>revolutionary</i>, of being part of a counter-culture that would shake up the establishment and it&#8217;s wholly inadequate and corrupt way of doing things.  </p>
<p>IMO this is why the Yeshiva world from the mid-40s to the early seventies was more vital and dynamic (and produced more outsatnding people) than it is today (despite being much smaller).  Before it became the new &#8220;establishment&#8221; IT was a REVOLUTIONARY movement.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a partial list of Jews of Genius over the last several centuries who revolutionized, reinvented and reinvigorated without betraying tradition: </p>
<p>The Ba&#8217;al Shem Tov, the Kotzker Rebbe, RSRH, Rav Nachman, Rav Yisroel Salanter, Rav Chaim Brisker, his grandson RYBS, Sara Schnirer, Rav Meir Shapiro, Rav Kook, the Satmar Rebbe, Der Alter fun Nivardhok, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Kook and Rav Hutner.</p>
<p>So much of what seems to be ancient, mass-movement Judaism today owes so much to these trailblazers that it&#8217;s hard to imagine that they were ever considered noncomformists much less visionary revolutionaries.  But read your (unbiased) history and you&#8217;ll discover that nearly all were extremely controversial when they first burst upon the scene and met with stiff opposition.  Some continue to be controversial today.</p>
<p>Not that we can wave a wand and fabricate a visionary revolutionary leader out of thin air but as the OTD crisis grows to pandemic proportions cutting across all socioeconomic strata, denominations and scholarship levels it may be that this phenomenon represents more than a widespread social pathology.  As an expression of a deep-seated dissatisfaction with Yiddishkeit in it&#8217;s current incarnation it may betoken a whole generation&#8217;s collective soul demanding a new movement, the next Chasidic/Mussar/Lomdishe fill-in-the-blank_____ revolution, a reinvented Yiddishkeit that speaks to their unique time and place while remaining firmly rooted in the Mesorah.</p>
<p>The trick is to be conservative without being preservative, to be orthodox but not mere oxen pulling the yoke of popular opinion.  Easier dreamed for than done.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Brizel</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2007/01/29/do-bt-parents-risk-kids-off-the-derech/comment-page-2/#comment-36650</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Brizel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 03:57:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=621#comment-36650</guid>
		<description>JT-R Wolbe&#039;s book on parenting is a classic that IMO can be read over and over again. I would also reccomend R D A Twerski&#039;s book on the same subject as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JT-R Wolbe&#8217;s book on parenting is a classic that IMO can be read over and over again. I would also reccomend R D A Twerski&#8217;s book on the same subject as well.</p>
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		<title>By: azriela jaffe</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2007/01/29/do-bt-parents-risk-kids-off-the-derech/comment-page-2/#comment-36644</link>
		<dc:creator>azriela jaffe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 02:01:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=621#comment-36644</guid>
		<description>Chaya and Martin:  Thanks for the welcome to this fabulous community, and for the recommendation of my book, &quot;Two Jews can still be a mixed Marriage&quot;. You suggested picking up a copy of the book if this subject is relevant to people, so I wanted people on this listserve to know, the book is now out of print. You can purchase it directly from me ( any good author has a box in the basement), so email me if you are interested. I also want to tell you that this book was written in the early years of my marriage, when I was reform and my husband was conservative, and it&#039;s the right book for any couple negotiating basic differences in level of observance in their marriage. It&#039;s NOT the right book if you are already frum, with differences, as two jews is really oriented towards couples considering a change in observance as basic as &quot;should we keep kosher and what will that look like?&quot;, not, which yeshiva should we send our child to? Still, the principles in that book apply to all of us who are negotiating differences in our marriage, and what marriage does not have them? You can learn more about these books and my other book, &quot;What do you mean, you can&#039;t eat in my home?&quot; at my website, www.azriela.com. Hope they can be helpful. I will be recommending this site to all the people I speak to in my travels!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chaya and Martin:  Thanks for the welcome to this fabulous community, and for the recommendation of my book, &#8220;Two Jews can still be a mixed Marriage&#8221;. You suggested picking up a copy of the book if this subject is relevant to people, so I wanted people on this listserve to know, the book is now out of print. You can purchase it directly from me ( any good author has a box in the basement), so email me if you are interested. I also want to tell you that this book was written in the early years of my marriage, when I was reform and my husband was conservative, and it&#8217;s the right book for any couple negotiating basic differences in level of observance in their marriage. It&#8217;s NOT the right book if you are already frum, with differences, as two jews is really oriented towards couples considering a change in observance as basic as &#8220;should we keep kosher and what will that look like?&#8221;, not, which yeshiva should we send our child to? Still, the principles in that book apply to all of us who are negotiating differences in our marriage, and what marriage does not have them? You can learn more about these books and my other book, &#8220;What do you mean, you can&#8217;t eat in my home?&#8221; at my website, <a href="http://www.azriela.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.azriela.com</a>. Hope they can be helpful. I will be recommending this site to all the people I speak to in my travels!</p>
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		<title>By: azriela jaffe</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2007/01/29/do-bt-parents-risk-kids-off-the-derech/comment-page-2/#comment-36639</link>
		<dc:creator>azriela jaffe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 01:50:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=621#comment-36639</guid>
		<description>ROn and Jacob - on the topic of walking away from an interview - I&#039;m the author of 13 books and I&#039;ve been interviewed a zillion times. The WORST ones are when the interviewer couldn&#039;t have been nicer, you hang up the phone thinking, wow, that should be great -- AND THEN you read the article and you are either completely misquoted, or they take all that great info you passed it along and call it their own, and you are scarcely mentioned. And this is not a BT issue, this is the world of being a published author and being in the media. But that said, we authors just keep talking to the press because we believe in the books we&#039;ve written, and you do what you gotta do to get the word out. . .  and then you pray!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ROn and Jacob &#8211; on the topic of walking away from an interview &#8211; I&#8217;m the author of 13 books and I&#8217;ve been interviewed a zillion times. The WORST ones are when the interviewer couldn&#8217;t have been nicer, you hang up the phone thinking, wow, that should be great &#8212; AND THEN you read the article and you are either completely misquoted, or they take all that great info you passed it along and call it their own, and you are scarcely mentioned. And this is not a BT issue, this is the world of being a published author and being in the media. But that said, we authors just keep talking to the press because we believe in the books we&#8217;ve written, and you do what you gotta do to get the word out. . .  and then you pray!</p>
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		<title>By: Jaded Topaz</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2007/01/29/do-bt-parents-risk-kids-off-the-derech/comment-page-2/#comment-36638</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaded Topaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 01:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=621#comment-36638</guid>
		<description>Steve Brizel and David Linn thanks for the read R Wolbe&#039;s parenting book literature advice. I&#039;ve actually read that book twice.
Basically there are a plethora of badly written Jewish fiction books. Some deep mussar stuff with a bitterly bland sense of English writing or some guys with ok writing skills but clearly no depth and only cotton candy oriented concepts. Hardly any mussar books out there written by authors with good English writing skills.So that&#039;s why we need Alei Shure translated. Ron Coleman are you out there listening ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve Brizel and David Linn thanks for the read R Wolbe&#8217;s parenting book literature advice. I&#8217;ve actually read that book twice.<br />
Basically there are a plethora of badly written Jewish fiction books. Some deep mussar stuff with a bitterly bland sense of English writing or some guys with ok writing skills but clearly no depth and only cotton candy oriented concepts. Hardly any mussar books out there written by authors with good English writing skills.So that&#8217;s why we need Alei Shure translated. Ron Coleman are you out there listening ?</p>
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		<title>By: B. Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2007/01/29/do-bt-parents-risk-kids-off-the-derech/comment-page-2/#comment-36589</link>
		<dc:creator>B. Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:57:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=621#comment-36589</guid>
		<description>Just plug the applicable set of numbers into the equation and off we go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just plug the applicable set of numbers into the equation and off we go.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2007/01/29/do-bt-parents-risk-kids-off-the-derech/comment-page-2/#comment-36586</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=621#comment-36586</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s just for each kid, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s just for each kid, of course.</p>
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		<title>By: B. Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2007/01/29/do-bt-parents-risk-kids-off-the-derech/comment-page-2/#comment-36577</link>
		<dc:creator>B. Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=621#comment-36577</guid>
		<description>Be advised that this comment is not nearly serious enough for Beyond BT readers.  Proceed with caution.

Ron Coleman asked above:
&quot;&#039;25 predisposing factors&#039; is such a complex concept that it has pretty limited predictive ability, wouldn’t we say? Or is there a hierarchy, perhaps?&quot;

BT (and other frum) parents need a new weapon in their fight for family sanity and against off-the-derech-ness.  Yes, kids are not computers, although many spend long hours with them and are best friends with them.  Still, a troubleshooting flow chart like this one (maybe less complex, but maybe not) can be a good model for a parents&#039; handy tool:
http://www.fonerbooks.com/poster.pdf

This format graphically shows the decision-making hierarchy suggested in Ron&#039;s remark.

In summary:  
Some worthy Jew should turn Rabbi Russell&#039;s 25 factors, or somebody else&#039;s factors, into a usable flow chart for parent decision-making.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Be advised that this comment is not nearly serious enough for Beyond BT readers.  Proceed with caution.</p>
<p>Ron Coleman asked above:<br />
&#8220;&#8217;25 predisposing factors&#8217; is such a complex concept that it has pretty limited predictive ability, wouldn’t we say? Or is there a hierarchy, perhaps?&#8221;</p>
<p>BT (and other frum) parents need a new weapon in their fight for family sanity and against off-the-derech-ness.  Yes, kids are not computers, although many spend long hours with them and are best friends with them.  Still, a troubleshooting flow chart like this one (maybe less complex, but maybe not) can be a good model for a parents&#8217; handy tool:<br />
<a href="http://www.fonerbooks.com/poster.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.fonerbooks.com/poster.pdf</a></p>
<p>This format graphically shows the decision-making hierarchy suggested in Ron&#8217;s remark.</p>
<p>In summary:<br />
Some worthy Jew should turn Rabbi Russell&#8217;s 25 factors, or somebody else&#8217;s factors, into a usable flow chart for parent decision-making.</p>
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		<title>By: Chaya H.</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2007/01/29/do-bt-parents-risk-kids-off-the-derech/comment-page-2/#comment-36571</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaya H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:03:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=621#comment-36571</guid>
		<description>Azriela: Welcome to BeyondBT! _Two Jews Can Still Be a Mixed Marriage_ was a great resource for me when I was first married.

Martin: Check out the above mentioned book, it would be appropriate for the situation you are describing. Good luck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Azriela: Welcome to BeyondBT! _Two Jews Can Still Be a Mixed Marriage_ was a great resource for me when I was first married.</p>
<p>Martin: Check out the above mentioned book, it would be appropriate for the situation you are describing. Good luck.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2007/01/29/do-bt-parents-risk-kids-off-the-derech/comment-page-2/#comment-36550</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:01:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=621#comment-36550</guid>
		<description>Jacob, when you write a book, you talk to anyone who has noticed!  Plus, once she agreed to the interview, if she&#039;d cut it off -- which may have been appropriate -- she would have been skewered by the reporter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob, when you write a book, you talk to anyone who has noticed!  Plus, once she agreed to the interview, if she&#8217;d cut it off &#8212; which may have been appropriate &#8212; she would have been skewered by the reporter.</p>
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