I recently heard of non-religious Jews in the New York area publicly complaining about observant Jews blocking the street on Shabbos, taking money away from public school funding, and not letting their kids play with the non-religious girls who wear pants.
Well frum Jews are certainly not without fault. We’re not perfect. If we were, moshiach would be here already. But let’s put things in perspective.
The secular world is plagued with unwed pregnancies, sex on the school busses, drug problems, theft, vandalism, and even an occasional child murderer. Our problems pale in comparison. We have some of the same problems as they do (their problems seep into our society) but always on a much smaller scale.
Sometimes the secular media expands and embellishes upon a problem in the frum community. We don’t want to ignore our faults, but we also want to put them into perspective. The secular media often seem to have an agenda to discredit anyone religious.
I heard a report on NPR that highlighted the idea of Rumspringa, a custom of the Amish community to send out teenagers to the “real†world to decide if they want to assimilate or stay in the Amish community. The callers were appalled at how little preparation the teenagers were given to be able to deal with the secular world.
“I heard of one case in which an Amish boy had a beer that one of the public school kids had urinated into,†one caller lamented.
They were appalled at the fact that the Amish didn’t prepare the teenagers, so the secular kids took advantage of the Amish teenagers’ naiveté. Yet the callers weren’t appalled at all at the cruelty of the secular teenagers. I guess because it’s all too common. Instead of criticizing the community that raises innocent teenagers, why not criticize the community that raises cruel teenagers?
Sometimes BTs are put in a position to defend the frum community from reports in the secular media of money laundering, rude behavior, and other transgressions. It’s good to know how to respond.
When we’re at our worst, our transgressions are still few and far between, and they also pale in comparison with the number and the severity of the transgressions of the secular society.
Let’s keep things in perspective.
Dear Rabbi Weiman,
I have just read your post, and while I agree to a large extent the message you portray, I find there is a sense of naiveté that laces your words. I have been frum my entire life, born out of town in a smaller Jewish community, but have spent most of my life in NY frum communities and yeshivas. I do not sit comfortably with your assessment that overall secular society (which includes secular Jewry as well) is a horrible, cancerous entity while frum Jews overall are the pinnacle of temimosdikness. For the past ten years I have worked in the businessworld and social service world, have had non-jewish and/or secular friends and neighbors. There are tons of loving, kind people. And by lumping secular Jews in with the rest of secular society, and saying how bad it is, you are turning people away instead of bringing them forward. Yidden are yidden, even those who are “tinok shenishbah.”
There is substance abuse, physical violence, and perversity in various shades of grey in the frum community as well, and we ALL know that.
There is also a ridiculous sense of elitism and excessiveness within some of our very shtark communities.
While I believe Torah is the absolute truth, and by default it is perfect because it is from Hashem, there seems to be problems in the way us humans execute it.
Sometimes I get more upset when I hear that a NY Yeshiva sends a girl home to take off her white nail polish. Or the other day when I was told by a teacher in a local girls high school that the school changed the color of a blonde girl’s hair in the yearbook to dark, so she will have less shidduch problems later on. Or perhaps that when I walk through the diamond district to look for a watch the from clerks treat me like I’m a clueless women and lie about prices over and over again and look me up and down. These silly things happen everyday, creating conflicts within our own community. Obviously, there things are still the minority, but it is there, everyday, and the stories of unfairness and stupidities within our own communities expand.
Let’s step way from the evils of the secular society for a few moths, and focus on the major inherent problems of our own.
DK-FWIW, I think that your concept of religious fence/ public space has been rejected by every court to whom that appeal has voiced and borders on a profoundly flawed reading of the First Amendment, especially the Free Exercise Clause. The courts tend to view arguments of that nature as an impermissible excercise on the free exercise of religion clause, which contains no stipulation that religion be practiced privately or under the tolerance of a secular majority. This is especially so when those who seek to create an eruv impose neither a legal nor financial burden on the municipality.
WADR, your arguments view the free exercise of religion as some sort of museum relic to be discretely practiced at the best and barely tolerated in the marketplace of ideas. That IMO borders on a view that the Founders intended the public sphere to be devoid of all things religious-an absolutist Jeffersonian view,but hardly the view of the majority of the Founding Fathers including Washington and Adams.
I also reject the notion that it is strictly a NY issue. Samuel Freedman documents the issue of O suburban growth in Cleveland/Beechwood and Great Neck-with the same O bashing comments voiced as to the building of a sukkah , shuls and yeshivos in these communities. I would be loath to let anyone judge how I was to exercise my religious libery other than rav, posek, etc, as opposed to the majority who simply are uncomfortable with public ( and private) displays of religious loyalty.
FWIW, Baltimore is a model of inter-denominational cooperation because its Federation includes on its board a complete communal range-Yeshivas Ner Yisrael ( R Neuberger ZTL) to R which allowed for O institutions to be heard, receive communal funds , voice their concerns from within and to build yeshivos,mikvaos, an eruv and other communal needs without rancor.That simply was not the case elsewhere.
DK:
I’m still willing to talk to you. I just don’t think this discussion has been productive and so I’m content to let you have the last word.
As far as the public space/eruv issue goes Steve Brizel is probably more qualified to address that than I.
David,
I never suggested there was a monolithic cabal.
And I certainly recognize the posters here are quite varied.
Steve,
You said,
“The simple facts are that secular Jews use these laws in the same manner as Jim Crow laws were used against African Americans to keep the “otherâ€, namely the Orthodox Jew out of their pristine suburban enclaves.”
Well, the eruv issue may be different, as it is essentially a religious fence in the public space. David Linn would be better able to tackle that one, if he is still willing to talk to me.
If we accept that it can be looked upon as a religious (if unobtrusive) marker in the public space, it makes sense that secular Jews can decide how they are going to respond to that.
I think perhaps some of this stuff may be spillover from the Israeli kulterkampf between Haredi and secular, and it is less of a problem outside of New York.
In places like Pittsburgh and Baltimore, secular Jews (of varying levels of tradition) and Orthodox Jews traditionally lived in harmony, and I know FOR A FACT that this co-existence remains a source of pride to many in the Modern Orthodox communities of Pittsburgh, who are very much concerned with retaining a secular Jewish presence in Squirrel Hill, one of but a few select bastions of urban Jewish living outside of New York.
You said,
“As far as the control of the secular system is concerned. I think that the comfort level concern is speculative at best and paranoid at worst.”
You’re right. I don’t think any of us disagree on the issue of “community control,” and obviously it would be drastically overstating the case to suggest this is the same thing, even in terms of perception by the most fearful. I am only saying that secular Jews are particularly sensitive to this issue because of what happened in the past. And they do remember. When Lindsay died, he was not honored the way one would expect a two term mayor would be honored. The NY Times tried to find nice things to say about their formerly beloved teen idol mayor, but even they dared not go to far. Secular Jewish resentment towards this guy went deep, and he was not forgotten or forgiven. Part of the difference of perception may lie in the fact that his favored method of ridding a neighborhood of it’s Jews was not effective against Orthodox Jews, as they didn’t use the public school system. This would also help explain why Orthodox Jews might not understand the hysteria when secular Jews perceive their public schools are in some way being threatened. And understanding that might help to put things “in perspective.”
DK-No one “lets” a community build an eruv, shul, yeshiva or mikva out of the kindness of their collective or individual hearts. AFAIK, communities don’t exercise the rights of determining who live in their communities as if the entire area was a private gated enclave.
Look at it this way. First of all, the Bill of Rights provides that every religious group shall be entitled to the free exercise of religion. ( Parenthetically, one can argue that parallel “establishment clause” has been bent like a pretxel by liberal courts all out of proportion from its orginal intent of prohibiting a Church of England as undestood by Adams, etc to an sbolute bar on all things religious ala an “freedom from religion” as envisioned by that great slaveholding agnostic/Deist Virginian Thomas Jefferson.).Like it or not, most, if not all State and Federal courts bar the use of zoning and similar laws to bar the construction of houses of worship, mikvaos and eruvs or sukkahs by coop owners. The simple facts are that secular Jews use these laws in the same manner as Jim Crow laws were used against African Americans to keep the “other”, namely the Orthodox Jew out of their pristine suburban enclaves. Phillip Roth has an excellent portrayal of the emotional issues underling this struggle in a story entitled “Eli The Fanatic.”
While secular-O tensions do exist in some communities and which we sometimes contribute to, the facts are that the Orthodox community is merely exercising its First Amendment rights when zoning and similar laws are applied predominnatly against Orthodox Jews.
As far as the control of the secular system is concerned. I think that the comfort level concern is speculative at best and paranoid at worst. I know of no such school system that has been downsized solely for that reason.In contrast, one can argue that the NYC public school system deteriorated markedly from 1968, the origin of an anti Semitic experiment called “community control” until the Blumberg Administration’s reversion to central management. As I pointed out, the O community depends on a strong secular school system for the provision of mandated services and pays property taxes supporting the same-even though the frum community has its own school system. If anything is the case, voters on school budgets look at waste, bells and whistles and managerial perks therein as if they were shareholders-regardless of their religious or ethnic backgrounds.
There are a number of things which disturb me greatly about Rabbi Weiman’s article. First and foremost, this quote:
Our problems pale in comparison. We have some of the same problems as they do (their problems seep into our society) but always on a much smaller scale.
This bothers me in part due to the “Their problems are worse than our problems, so there” attitude, which is, in my humble opinion, a very adolescent way to view this situation. As Sephardi Lady rightly pointed out, our communities have plenty of problems that are quite serious, and it behooves us to address and deal with those problems in a realistic way, as opposed to sublimating them through self-congratulatory comparisons with others, which is, with all due respect, what I believe Rabbi Weiman and some of the posters in this thread are doing, albeit, I’m sure, unintentionally.
However, it is this We have some of the same problems as they do (their problems seep into our society) that I find most objectionable. The implication is clear- we’re not as bad as them, but when we are, it’s their fault. Again, this strikes me as just plain childish.
My daughters (6, 8 & 10) will occasionally pull this nonsense when they misbehave. “I wouldn’t have done X if not for my sister, who showed me how/tricked me into/convinced me to do X, even though I knew I shouldn’t do it.” I would be remiss in my parenting were I to say, “Oh, then it’s not so bad.” It would be preposterous for adults to accept such an excuse from other adults.
If frum culture and secular culture face similar problems, then it seems a more logical, reasonable and adult conclusion to draw from that fact would be that these problems are universal, human problems, as opposed to something forced upon the frum by the secular. Drawing the latter conclusion is merely an attempt to mitigate the transgressions of someone we believe to be frum and deflect responsibility onto others.
Several posters have discussed our values as opposed to the values of secular society, and it seems to me that people are over-looking a rather obvious fact of human nature. When we say that our values, morals, way of life are superior to that of secular society (and to be clear, I think they are), it follows quite naturally that people will look at or to us in order to see if we are able to live up to our words.
When we act in a way that breaks the law and/or defies the rules of common courtesy, we are turning our words about morals and values into nothing but empty boasts and demonstrating that we are just as selfish and self-absorbed as the secular or non-frum world. It is not at all surprising that the people who hold the values to which we have declared ours superior would then say, “Well, looks like your values aren’t so superior after all.”
DK:
You write “I would not feel as comfortable with a school system run by those who don’t use it as by those who do use it.”
A growing number of politicians to which the school boards are beholden are sending their children to private schools (religious and otherwise), not to mention the children of the principals of these schools. While I agree with your premise in this regard, it is not a finger that should be (solely) pointed at the frum community.
You also wrote
“But I think if you look to the root of this conflict, it really only became a problem once the Orthodox were no longer content to live among their secular bretheren, but wanted dominance.
Frum Jews first moved to this area not because secular Jews are hateful of Orthodox Jews, but because they are quite accepting of Orthodox Jews.
I’m not sure which area you are talking about but I don’t think anyone claimed that secular Jews are, on the whole, hateful of orthodox jews. I, for one, don’t believe that.
I also don’t believe in the conspiratorial allegation that Orthodox Jews desire “dominance”. Do you actually think about these things before you say them?!
“They let you build an eruv…
I’m not so sure that following the law regarding “letting” a community build an eruv should be viewed as a nicety. Especially not by someone who seems to place an emphasis on being law abiding when it comes to things such as traffic and building regulations.
“But some secular Jews clearly feel the Orthodox have turned on them. And instead of cries for concern, and for demanding the Orthodox reach out and perhaps making sure that those who helped you build your new community and now feel threatened with their minority staturs should feel comfortable staying as long as they want, without their roads being clogged or their schools being downsized–instead their concerns are being dismissed, and their perspectives conflated–as if the secular Jews of Long Island are the defenders of all the evils in the worst housing projects of America for setting their standards too high. ‘Too high’ as in insisting on the same standards they had enjoyed ten years ago. And that’s a shame. But what’s really sad–to me–is that these ideas to condemn in the crudest and bizarre ways possible are being echoed on a blog that should seek to empathize with Jews who everyone on this blog knows and loves.”
First of all, the post itself never made the sweeping generalizations you have. And no one made a comparison to the housing projects except yourself. Just because you read certain things into the post doesn’t mean that intention was there.
Second, despite your previous attempts to paint all participants on the blog into one neat anti-social, anti-secular Jew box, the participants are quite varied. None of us speaks for anyone other than themselves (just as your opinions are not held by all other secular Jews).
Just as one who makes unfair broad statements about non-religious Jews is wrong and detracts from any valid points he might be making, you do the same when you bring preconceived notions of Orthodox Jews as public service cheats, community usurpers and a monolithic nefarious cabal bent on pestering secular Jews enough to shoo them out of their schools and homes. Such rhetoric serves only to detract from any and all of your valid points. But we’ve been down that road before so it just leads me to think that your goal is not to foster a constructive discussion. Rather, it is to lash out at a community that you feel has somehow harmed you. If that is the case, I see no further reason to be a participant in this particular dialogue (parallel monologues?).
Steve,
I would not feel as comfortable with a school system run by those who don’t use it as by those who do use it.
David Linn, you said,
“Perhaps both sides need to be more appreciative of the concerns of the other.”
I agree with that. But I think if you look to the root of this conflict, it really only became a problem once the Orthodox were no longer content to live among their secular bretheren, but wanted dominance.
Frum Jews first moved to this area not because secular Jews are hateful of Orthodox Jews, but because they are quite accepting of Orthodox Jews. They let you build an eruv, they look the other way when you technically violate a building code by starting a makeshift synagogue in your den…all sorts of fraternal perks. Don’t start a Orthodox Enclave without secular Jews. (Unless you’re Chassidic. But those rules are pretty tough, for most of us mere English speakers.)
But some secular Jews clearly feel the Orthodox have turned on them. And instead of cries for concern, and for demanding the Orthodox reach out and perhaps making sure that those who helped you build your new community and now feel threatened with their minority staturs should feel comfortable staying as long as they want, without their roads being clogged or their schools being downsized–instead their concerns are being dismissed, and their perspectives conflated–as if the secular Jews of Long Island are the defenders of all the evils in the worst housing projects of America for setting their standards too high. ‘Too high’ as in insisting on the same standards they had enjoyed ten years ago. And that’s a shame. But what’s really sad–to me–is that these ideas to condemn in the crudest and bizarre ways possible are being echoed on a blog that should seek to empathize with Jews who everyone on this blog knows and loves. And be mindful of what such a culture clash and a lack of satsifying resolution on the part of the secular Jews means both in terms of their religious future, but of other communities who will decide how to greet new Orthodox neighbors.
For the paradigm is being set. And it isn’t pretty. And it doesn’t forbode will.
This should be the concern. I shouldn’t be the one raising it. You should have been worried about this from the start. Not about how Orthodox Jews are better than the dregs of a really bad Housing Project.
Past Nisht!
DK-I see no evidence of O control of a secular school system having anything to do with a school system’s budget.Like it or not, we benefit from a state in the art school system because of the quality of mandated services, etc.
DK:
I think I see your point. But it isn’t it as simple as the problem being that the secular Jewish community is concerned about its collective needs and the frum community is concerned about its collective needs?
Perhaps both sides need to be more appreciative of the concerns of the other.
I don’t think either side throwing mud at the other serves any constructive purpose.
Steve,
It is natural for the Orthodox to have resistance to paying for a public school system that they don’t use. This is at least partially why they made sure to vote in their own people. It is also understandable that this is not acceptable to secular Jews.
David,
It explains it all too clearly. The secular Jews feel they are being pushed out on this issue. Even some of those decrying secular Jewish resentments seem to have no problem advocating that secular Jews should leave. Not one bit.
Rabbi Klein said,
“America is a democracy. Anyone has the right to run for public school boards and zoning boards. If somebody doesn’t like the zoning boards decision they are free to move to a town that zones like they want”
Yes. Some feel the best thing–once their is a majority contingency of Orthodx citizens–is for secular Jews to do MOVE.
Perhaps secular Jews and other should note this the next time they are considering allowing or not allowing an eruv in a neighborhood out of a very naive idea that their community can co-exist with an Orthodox community. Clearly, this is not a realistic idea. That is not what some of the Orthodox really want. No more than it was what many African-American activists wanted in Oceanside or Canarsie.
DK,
Now I see the comparison. But I don’t see how it excuses or explains the point at issue.
DK-Look at it this way. There are certain services that either are mandated ( i.e.required such as speech therapy, OT and PT) and other services that yeshivos provide that are wholly secular-transportation and textbooks for secular subjects. However, the local end of paying for these services is born via property taxes. IMO, it is short sighted for frum Jews to kvetch about these taxes which provide services for all students of all schools. The notion that an O cotrolled school board will suddenly devalue a public school system’s appropriations is another example of liberal urban mythology as opposed to facts at work.
David,
I am saying that when secular Jews feel their childrens’ public school system is under attack, they will react accordingly, and with hostility.
Steve, you said,
“The issue is whether that education is solely secular, secular and Torah or Torah only.”
That is not the issue. Not for secular Jews. The public school will remain secular, according to federal law. The issue is whether the public schools which secular Jews use, but the Orthodox do not, even though the Orthodox now hold the power of funding over those schools–are properly funded or are not properly funded.
DK-I think that you conflated the issue under discussion. Noone disputes that Jews value an education. The issue is whether that education is solely secular, secular and Torah or Torah only. That is a fairly accurate state of an argument that has been ongoing since the breakdown of the ghettos in Europe.
Your point about the public school system only has some merit to the extent that bussing, textbooks and any mandated services for special ed go thru a local school district. The quality and fiscal resources of every public school board and district have a huge impact on the yeshiva system as well.
As far as your recollection of the UFT strike, Al Shanker was a Democratic Socialist who IIRC, lived in Scarsdale. The Ocean Hill Brownsville incidents of anti Semitism in the context of the mantra of “community control” led to the exodus of many Jewish students and teachers from the NY City system.
IIRC, both the religious and secular Jewish leadership fought the Forest Hills projects in a fairly good display of unity.
DK:
I misread that part of your comment. However, I guess I was tripped up by how this played in to your argument:
This has been historically the method to rid a neighborhood of its secular Jews. This was done in Oceanside and Canarsie.
I’m a bit confused.
David Linn,
Exactly! It was secular Jews. That is my point. Secular Jews are always concerned with anything that will affect their neighborhood ESPECIALLY their public school system.
What part of “the secular Jewish community of Forest Hills” did you misread, sir?
DK,
If you think that the Forest Hills’ projects battle was spearedheaded by orthodox jews, you’d better check your facts again.
Having grown up non-frum in Forest Hills and diagonally across the street from the city projects for many years, I can tell you that you are way off.
Do you even have any idea what percentage of the FH population was orthodox back then?
This argument is simply a canard.
We have every right to decide who our kids will play with and what values and behaviors we want to expose them to. I don’t want my children playing with kids who come from homes where cursing and tznius values don’t hold up to torah standards(boyfriends/girlfriends not for the sake of dating for marriage purposes, etc..) That is not discriminatory that is called educating my children properly.>>
What if you could make a difference in the life of an at-risk child by having your children befriend them?
It seems that a major issue here not being addressed is fear of these secular Jews about the future for their public school system. This has been historically the method to rid a neighborhood of its secular Jews. This was done in Oceanside and Canarsie. It is the issue where Lindsay faced fierce resistance from middle and working-class class Jews from the UTF’s uprising led by the great Social-Democrat Al Shanker. It is probably a core issue of what led to shocking resistance of the secular Jewish community of Forest Hills to proposed housing projects in their neighborhood, and the “compromise,” (really a victory for the Jews of Forest Hills) engineered by Ed Koch, their political leader, who consequently earned the trust of the outer borrough secular Jews enough to become the mayor of NYC.
To not have sensitivity or honesty about the emphsis secular Jews place on education — even in a “plagued” secular world–is rediculous.
So let’s look at a critical excerpt of that Newsday article:
“Lawrence Mayor Jack Levenbrown recalled that it was “a big to-do” when he became the first Orthodox Jew elected to the village board in 1988. Today, all five board members are Orthodox, and “almost everyone moving into Lawrence is somewhere in the Orthodox spectrum,” he said.
As the majority became a minority, the landscape of this suburban community has shifted. With an overwhelming number of residents now sending their children to parochial schools, disagreements have revolved around the size of the public school budget and how that money should be distributed.”
Alter-you too are engaging in apologetics and advocating isolationism where it will become the rule of nature. I thought that the article in question, the responses by the O leadership and the not yet frum Jews was nothing more than a tired repeat of other similar articles.
No one is saying that any pre schooler from a frum family who plays with a non Jewish or not yet frum neighbor will go off the derech.OTOH, if you invite a not yet frum family to your house for a meal, kiddush, send them Shalach Manos or just act like a mentsch-then you are being Mkadesh Shem Shamayim and possibly creating a kiruv opportunity as well. For example, on our block, which is overwhelmingly a frum block, we have a single man who once sat shiva. All of us made sure to mnachem avel, even though his derech hachaim was not ours. Once your kids begin school and start going to shul, that time of your kids life will be a very distant memory.
Sure, O bashing exists. OTOH, walking on a street instead of a sidewalk on Shabbos and double parking in frum neighborhoods are just wrong and IMO display poor midos -unless you have a NYPD permit like many communities have justfor hakafos on Simchas Torah. FWIW, I have never seen double parking by anyone ignored by the NYPD-it is a traffic offense that is pretty well uniformly inforced.
Moroever, please don’t rationalize double parking by sayung that it “beats muggings and drug abuse.” AFAIK, we have no license al pi din to break any traffic offense. Moreoever, that rationale ignores the fact child abuse, spousal abuse and kids at risk exist in our communities. . WADR, the notion that we should “look at the positive not the negative” is a time honored and IMO not so veiled way of saying that we should ignore this unsavory subculture because it might turn away BTs, etc -despite the fact that one can seekids at risk on any Shabbos or Motzei Shabbos night in any frum neighborhood.
As far as zoning battles are concerned, O bashing does exist and has been taken to the courts by secular Jews. These cases have all been lost by the secular Jews because the courts have a very negative view of using zoning laws to restrain the constitutional right of one’s free exercise of religion. However, many secular Jews , rightfully or wrongfully, see the change in their neighborhood as a signal to move because the public schools will not be used and because they and their children will feel out of place.
I read the article in the newspaper. The only problem I saw was that people walk in the street which can cause traffic problems or the double parking.
America is a democracy. Anyone has the right to run for public school boards and zoning boards. If somebody doesn’t like the zoning boards decision they are free to move to a town that zones like they want
Secular and Non Jews have very different values and conduct codes from the Orthodox world. We have every right to decide who our kids will play with and what values and behaviors we want to expose them to. I don’t want my children playing with kids who come from homes where cursing and tznius values don’t hold up to torah standards(boyfriends/girlfriends not for the sake of dating for marriage purposes, etc..) That is not discriminatory that is called educating my children properly.
In many of the past few years where there have been battles between town boards and orthodox communities over eruvs, installing sidewalks and synagogues, the initiators of the fight have often been secular Jews who want to keep the orthodox from moving in their neighborhoods. I think this is a shame. When you think of neighbors you would want, I would think that we make good neighbors. Many non-Jews like having frum neighbors. We don’t bother them, our children for the most part are behaviored and crime from our group is very low. Yes, we arent perfect but as the article did state when a orthodox jew double parks she is singled out but when someone else does it, it is ok. You know what, yes, double parking is bad but it sure beats muggings and drug use(even recreational ).
We have come along way and we as a community have a lot to proud of. We also have work to do but look at the positive not the negative.
I too thought the poster leaned too much to apologetics. Unfortunately some very serious problems can be found in our communities and I see no reason to try to play the game of whose problems are worse.
Thank G-d we don’t battle with unwed pregnancy, but we do battle with fraud and other terrible issues.
I see no reason for a BT (or an FFB) to change the subject with an inquirer and point out that other communities have problems. Rather, acknowledge that these are terrible issues and that people in the community are disgusted by them.
Neil,
I think the most honest response is the one formulated by Steve in Comment #1. Rude behavior is not a Torah value. Affirm that the actions under discussion are not acceptable. Act like a mentsch yourself. That goes a long way.
DK
Your often/sometimes intelligent comments are marginalized by rant-filled comments like the one(s) above. For the sake of yourself and all those involved here at Beyond BT, please use intelligence, common sense and discretion when commenting.
I decided maybe I was too harsh, and I would just like to echo Rabbi Weidman’s call for secular Jewry to stop being so complacent about child murder (unless it’s from metziza b’ peh, then they should be quiet, and leave that personal spiritual decision to the parents’ halachik advisor).
But generally, child murder is not okay. And the secular community’s obvious tolerance of child murder (demonstrated by any complaint about their Orthodox neighbor who is doing something that bothers them) should stop. Secular Jewry MUST stop tolerating child murder.
I think we can all agree that blocking the street is would fall under “rude” behavior.
“Sometimes BTs are put in a position to defend the frum community from reports in the secular media of money laundering, rude behavior, and other transgressions. It’s good to know how to respond.”
The real question is, “How do we respond?”
I’v found that the “don’t judge a religion by its’ people” doesn’t always hold up. Sometimes what’s wrong behavior by society’s standards is just wrong.
Anyone have any words of wisdom about how to respond…
I live in on the Upper West Side in Manhattan, a city I have heard Haredi Jews even as nearby as Brooklyn refer to lovingly as the “City of Sinners.”
However, I find the compare/contrast suggestion of Rabbi Weiman referring to quite strange. It is quite rare when a group of secular Jews come on a subway and we all look away lest we incur problems through eye contact.
When I am on the subway or street, I do not usually see secular Jews from West End Ave and Riverside committing the types of anti-social he is contrasting heimeshe frumme yidden to.
Those types of behavior — where I live — are committed by those from the very lowest socio-economic bracket. And they are rarely Jews. Secular Jews are not known for this type of behavior.
But there are such people. Indeed. And you are correct, Rabbi Weiman. Orthodox Jews are not that bad. Not at all. Especially since you didn’t mention abuse of government entitlement programs.
Thank you for setting the bar so high for your community. You obviously have a lot of faith in them as upstanding citizens. It must make you very proud.
Why shouldn’t people complain if observant Jews block the street on Shabbos? Does it really matter if the complainers are non-observant Jews or gentiles? Why should a non-observant Jew give more of a pass to rudeness than a gentile?
The original article that Rabbi Weiman refers to is here.
“I recently heard of non-religious Jews in the New York area publicly complaining about observant Jews blocking the street on Shabbos, taking money away from public school funding, and not letting their kids play with the non-religious girls who wear pants.”
Perhaps the first step is to delegitimize those who let their mouths run loose with this kind of libel and point out their hypocrisy since the same types are all too willing to pontificate about the evils of stereotyping of certain ethnic categories.
As usual, we’re not even a blip on the PC radar screen.
This approach is by no means mutually exclusive of avoiding all types of behavior which could prove detrimental to the goals we espouse as individuals and as a community and conversely seizing every moment to be M’kadaish Shaim Shomayim.
Furthermore, we shouldn’t be naive that there are unfortunately examples of those who’ve made a Chilul Hashem.
But it by no means gives the right for anyone to indulge in declaring guilt by association and sanctimonious finger pointing especially when they’re wont to preach about the virtues of innocent until proven otherwise.
For Jews to be a beacon of light to the nations of this world, our light has to shine enough in this world for them to see it. This light is one hoped-for result of our efforts to learn and practice Torah, even if obedience to HaShem is the real motivating factor.
Ora-Now, we are talking about the age-old concept of reward for mitzvos. It is almost self-evident that we perform mitzvos first and foremost because they were commanded to us by G-d. Only after accepting the mitzvos in a categorically affirmative manner without any conditions can we then begin to look for reasons which enhance them. I think that the notion of results is a simplistic concept that the Rambam in the last chapter of Hilcos Teshuvah would view as acceptable for the uneducated but not the highest level of performance of a mitzvah
Steve B: I think it’s fair to promise results. It could be compared to excersize: if someone eats healthy food and exercises more often, their health will improve. Depending on natural ability, and where they start from, they may or may not reach certain levels of fitness, but if the efforts are genuine, there will be improvement. Similarly, anyone who genuinely strives to keep all of the mitzvot will improve their middot. (Their middot might still be relatively bad, it all depends on where you start and your inner nature. So you can still find frum people with middot problems and secular people with an excellent natural set of middot.)
All the same – frum folk ought to be ashamed of meandering in the streets on Shabbos, blocking legitimate traffic.
The streets belong to the city and are for all its residents to use. The chillul Hashem created when people show no regard on Shabbos for the residents driving about really makes me a bit crazy. We’re better than that and should know better that to do so.
Just because it’s Shabbos doesn’t mean we’re entitled to ignore the city’s traffic laws and block the roads. It’s not only rude but dangerous behavior.
Please – use the sidewalks when walking about on Shabbos.
If we are better than the rest, that may still not be good enough. Teshuva is a continuing process.
The commercial world has begun to realize this in its own way. For example, in industry, there are various quality-oriented programs, such as “Six Sigma”, designed to root out defects using statistical analysis and other methods. The principle is that it’s not good enough to be satisfied with an apparently low defect rate; the goal is to minimize or eliminate defects systematically. For a detailed outline of a typical management training course, see
http://www.asq.org/courses/outlines/manage-lead-six-sigma.html
The Jewish form of this activity could include intensive self-evaluation, planning for improvement, and monitoring of results by communities, organizations, leaders, and followers.
WADR, the above smacks of apologetics. We should have no difficulty in explaining that there is a major difference between someone who is Erlich and careful both in his observance of Halacha and the interpersonal mitzvos as opposed to some who who are merely ritually observant.
As far as the case in point, we used to have an Asian American family whose children borrowed our swings, etc until the kids school and shul schedules basically led to no interaction in the backyard. OTOH, I have never seen streets blocked in our neighborhood except on Simchas Torah and any money that our schools receive is for non-religious needs such as textbooks, etc.
OTOH, putting down the secular world because of its problems and advertising frum life as a “solution” is IMO intellectually dishonest because there is evidence of dysfunctional families, kids at risk, an increasing divorce rate, etc within our communities. IMO, if you offer Torah observance as a means to enrich , enoble and redeem the mundane in one’s life without guaranteeing its “results”, that is a far better ‘pitch” than guaranteeeing a result based upon the exposure of a BT to the best role models, etc.