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	<title>Comments on: The Permanent Preciousness of the “Secular” Jew</title>
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	<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/04/05/the-permanent-preciousness-of-the-%e2%80%9csecular%e2%80%9d-jew/</link>
	<description>Baalei Teshuva / Baalei Teshuvah and Other Growth Oriented Jews</description>
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		<title>By: SephardiLady</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/04/05/the-permanent-preciousness-of-the-%e2%80%9csecular%e2%80%9d-jew/comment-page-1/#comment-3260</link>
		<dc:creator>SephardiLady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Apr 2006 04:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=264#comment-3260</guid>
		<description>Being that Rabbi Cardozo is himself a master of teshuvah, as well as a kind and brillant man, I think we should definitely consider his position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being that Rabbi Cardozo is himself a master of teshuvah, as well as a kind and brillant man, I think we should definitely consider his position.</p>
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		<title>By: Menachem Lipkin</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/04/05/the-permanent-preciousness-of-the-%e2%80%9csecular%e2%80%9d-jew/comment-page-1/#comment-3258</link>
		<dc:creator>Menachem Lipkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Apr 2006 04:39:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=264#comment-3258</guid>
		<description>Ym,

That&#039;s a beautiful and just underlines my point.  Which is that, as successful as our kiruv efforts have been, they are just a teeny &quot;precious light&quot;.  Rabbi Cardozo is offering us an insight on how to maybe brighten that light just a little.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ym,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a beautiful and just underlines my point.  Which is that, as successful as our kiruv efforts have been, they are just a teeny &#8220;precious light&#8221;.  Rabbi Cardozo is offering us an insight on how to maybe brighten that light just a little.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Brizel</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/04/05/the-permanent-preciousness-of-the-%e2%80%9csecular%e2%80%9d-jew/comment-page-1/#comment-3255</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Brizel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Apr 2006 03:29:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=264#comment-3255</guid>
		<description>I think that pointing to chesed, which is something that all Jews do in different formats ranging from a not yet religious Jew giving a substantial donation to a yeshiva to hands on chesed, is not an appropriate means of kiruv. Showing someone the beauty of a Shabbos table or contrasting a yeshiva with a library of a college has a much more positive and powerful message.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that pointing to chesed, which is something that all Jews do in different formats ranging from a not yet religious Jew giving a substantial donation to a yeshiva to hands on chesed, is not an appropriate means of kiruv. Showing someone the beauty of a Shabbos table or contrasting a yeshiva with a library of a college has a much more positive and powerful message.</p>
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		<title>By: SephardiLady</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/04/05/the-permanent-preciousness-of-the-%e2%80%9csecular%e2%80%9d-jew/comment-page-1/#comment-3252</link>
		<dc:creator>SephardiLady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Apr 2006 02:59:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=264#comment-3252</guid>
		<description>Menachem-Those stats are really frightening.  Certainly something to think about during our Sedarim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Menachem-Those stats are really frightening.  Certainly something to think about during our Sedarim.</p>
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		<title>By: YM</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/04/05/the-permanent-preciousness-of-the-%e2%80%9csecular%e2%80%9d-jew/comment-page-1/#comment-3250</link>
		<dc:creator>YM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Apr 2006 02:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=264#comment-3250</guid>
		<description>Menachem, what is your point?  For every 10 heroin addicts that try to quit, probably less than one succeeds in quitting, and 9 go back to using until eventually they die.  And the &lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;&quot;frei&quot; addiction&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt; is something that most are born with.

In his beautiful book, &lt;i&gt;Wellsprings of Faith&lt;/i&gt;, Rabbi Moshe Wolfson talks about our generation, saying 
     &quot;...Never in history has there been a generation so lacking in feeling and sensitivity for Godliness.  Never has there been a generation so numb to its own injuries, so unconcerned about the damage that is being done to it.  In our own time, millions of souls have been torn away from the Jewish people, and yet the pain of that loss is hardly felt -- for it is a generation of insensitivity.  And yet, precisely because the souls of our generation are so poorly endowed, our own meager spiritual accomplishments are of tremendous significance to God...In a time of darkness, even the smallest light is precious.  In a generation of numb and calloused souls, even the simple faith of an ordinary Jew is a cause for immeasurable delight in Heaven.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Menachem, what is your point?  For every 10 heroin addicts that try to quit, probably less than one succeeds in quitting, and 9 go back to using until eventually they die.  And the <i><b>&#8220;frei&#8221; addiction</b></i> is something that most are born with.</p>
<p>In his beautiful book, <i>Wellsprings of Faith</i>, Rabbi Moshe Wolfson talks about our generation, saying<br />
     &#8220;&#8230;Never in history has there been a generation so lacking in feeling and sensitivity for Godliness.  Never has there been a generation so numb to its own injuries, so unconcerned about the damage that is being done to it.  In our own time, millions of souls have been torn away from the Jewish people, and yet the pain of that loss is hardly felt &#8212; for it is a generation of insensitivity.  And yet, precisely because the souls of our generation are so poorly endowed, our own meager spiritual accomplishments are of tremendous significance to God&#8230;In a time of darkness, even the smallest light is precious.  In a generation of numb and calloused souls, even the simple faith of an ordinary Jew is a cause for immeasurable delight in Heaven.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Menachem Lipkin</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/04/05/the-permanent-preciousness-of-the-%e2%80%9csecular%e2%80%9d-jew/comment-page-1/#comment-3247</link>
		<dc:creator>Menachem Lipkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Apr 2006 17:55:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=264#comment-3247</guid>
		<description>Shoshie,

I received some numbers from a friend at NJOP.  The number of BT&#039;s is somewhere between what you and I said.  There are currently about 4,000 BT a year.  (I assume this is in the US.)  Up until 1990 the rate was about 2,000 a year.  The estimate is that in the last 60 years there have been about 120,000 BTs.

I have some other numbers which people here might find interesting.

In 1990 there were about 6,000,000 Jews in America. Of those 2mm were totally unafiliated, 2mm moderately affiliated and 2mm highly affiliated.

Today, there are 5,200,000 Jews in America.  (That alone is stagering.)  Of those, 2.2mm are completely unaffiliated, 1.5 mm are moderately affiliated and 1.5mm are highly affiliated.

Of the &quot;highly&quot; affiliated Jews, 815,000 attend synagogue once a month or more and 415,000 are orthodox.

These numbers really put things in perspective.  Since 1990 there have been about 60,000 BTs, but we&#039;ve totally lost 800,000 Jews!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shoshie,</p>
<p>I received some numbers from a friend at NJOP.  The number of BT&#8217;s is somewhere between what you and I said.  There are currently about 4,000 BT a year.  (I assume this is in the US.)  Up until 1990 the rate was about 2,000 a year.  The estimate is that in the last 60 years there have been about 120,000 BTs.</p>
<p>I have some other numbers which people here might find interesting.</p>
<p>In 1990 there were about 6,000,000 Jews in America. Of those 2mm were totally unafiliated, 2mm moderately affiliated and 2mm highly affiliated.</p>
<p>Today, there are 5,200,000 Jews in America.  (That alone is stagering.)  Of those, 2.2mm are completely unaffiliated, 1.5 mm are moderately affiliated and 1.5mm are highly affiliated.</p>
<p>Of the &#8220;highly&#8221; affiliated Jews, 815,000 attend synagogue once a month or more and 415,000 are orthodox.</p>
<p>These numbers really put things in perspective.  Since 1990 there have been about 60,000 BTs, but we&#8217;ve totally lost 800,000 Jews!</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Frankel</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/04/05/the-permanent-preciousness-of-the-%e2%80%9csecular%e2%80%9d-jew/comment-page-1/#comment-3231</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Frankel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 19:47:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=264#comment-3231</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure that he said secular chesed was superior. Even if he did, it would not diminish from the thrust of his contention that people do not like to be made to feel inferior.

This is no easy task. We know that the Torah way of life is superior, yet we have to internalize the fact that that does not make us superior to another Jew. 

Rebbetzin Heller points out that comparisons to other people are almost always wrong. We each have our unique character, environment and mission, and it is our performance against that backdrop that is judged by Hashem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure that he said secular chesed was superior. Even if he did, it would not diminish from the thrust of his contention that people do not like to be made to feel inferior.</p>
<p>This is no easy task. We know that the Torah way of life is superior, yet we have to internalize the fact that that does not make us superior to another Jew. </p>
<p>Rebbetzin Heller points out that comparisons to other people are almost always wrong. We each have our unique character, environment and mission, and it is our performance against that backdrop that is judged by Hashem.</p>
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		<title>By: Ruby</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/04/05/the-permanent-preciousness-of-the-%e2%80%9csecular%e2%80%9d-jew/comment-page-1/#comment-3226</link>
		<dc:creator>Ruby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 19:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=264#comment-3226</guid>
		<description>&quot;Try telling a secular person that the Frum communities chesed is superior to the non-Frum communities chesed and see if they don’t find the statement arrogant.&quot;

Rabbi Cardoza was telling Frum people that the secular communities chesed is superior to the Frum communities chesed. Don&#039;t be surprised  if we find the statement arrogant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Try telling a secular person that the Frum communities chesed is superior to the non-Frum communities chesed and see if they don’t find the statement arrogant.&#8221;</p>
<p>Rabbi Cardoza was telling Frum people that the secular communities chesed is superior to the Frum communities chesed. Don&#8217;t be surprised  if we find the statement arrogant.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/04/05/the-permanent-preciousness-of-the-%e2%80%9csecular%e2%80%9d-jew/comment-page-1/#comment-3225</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 19:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=264#comment-3225</guid>
		<description>In 1973 or 1974, I attended a Bnai Brith meeting in Muskegon, MI, complete with kosher deli flown in from Chicago.  The members got into a discussion of all the chesed-type things Bnai Brith brothers around the world did for one another (home hospitality, etc.).  I later realized that all these were among the things Jews in general are expected to do for one another. Jews have an inward desire to do the right thing, and we try to act on it to the extent that we discover the details.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In 1973 or 1974, I attended a Bnai Brith meeting in Muskegon, MI, complete with kosher deli flown in from Chicago.  The members got into a discussion of all the chesed-type things Bnai Brith brothers around the world did for one another (home hospitality, etc.).  I later realized that all these were among the things Jews in general are expected to do for one another. Jews have an inward desire to do the right thing, and we try to act on it to the extent that we discover the details.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Frankel</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/04/05/the-permanent-preciousness-of-the-%e2%80%9csecular%e2%80%9d-jew/comment-page-1/#comment-3224</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Frankel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 18:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=264#comment-3224</guid>
		<description>There are many different forms and nuances of arrogance (see Mesillas Yesharim and other classical Mussar texts). 

Although it may be arrogant to say it, &quot;It is arrogant for any person to think that he/she has overcome to any significant degree the trait of arrogance&quot;.

Thinking that the frum communities chesed is superior to that of the non-frum community is a subtle from of such arrogance, even though it may be true in the eyes of Hashem. 

Try telling a secular person that the Frum communities chesed is superior to the non-Frum communities chesed and see if they don&#039;t find the statement arrogant. 

They will cite the billions and billions of dollars and man-hours devoted to chesed in the non-frum community, which you will then have to poo-poo away. Then they might point out the tepid response to natural disasters by the frum community compared to the non-frum community, which you will also have to explain away. 

I can go on and on, but hopefully you can see why the claim or belief of superiority is perceived as arrogant, even if it might be true. That was part of Rabbi Cordozo&#039;s point. 

I don&#039;t know the *best* way to do Kiruv, as all programs to date have had limited success in terms of making a dent in the total picture. I do believe we would all benefit from hearing what Rabbi Cordozo is saying although I would certainly not make the claim that it will be the ultimate kiruv solution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are many different forms and nuances of arrogance (see Mesillas Yesharim and other classical Mussar texts). </p>
<p>Although it may be arrogant to say it, &#8220;It is arrogant for any person to think that he/she has overcome to any significant degree the trait of arrogance&#8221;.</p>
<p>Thinking that the frum communities chesed is superior to that of the non-frum community is a subtle from of such arrogance, even though it may be true in the eyes of Hashem. </p>
<p>Try telling a secular person that the Frum communities chesed is superior to the non-Frum communities chesed and see if they don&#8217;t find the statement arrogant. </p>
<p>They will cite the billions and billions of dollars and man-hours devoted to chesed in the non-frum community, which you will then have to poo-poo away. Then they might point out the tepid response to natural disasters by the frum community compared to the non-frum community, which you will also have to explain away. </p>
<p>I can go on and on, but hopefully you can see why the claim or belief of superiority is perceived as arrogant, even if it might be true. That was part of Rabbi Cordozo&#8217;s point. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know the *best* way to do Kiruv, as all programs to date have had limited success in terms of making a dent in the total picture. I do believe we would all benefit from hearing what Rabbi Cordozo is saying although I would certainly not make the claim that it will be the ultimate kiruv solution.</p>
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		<title>By: Belle</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/04/05/the-permanent-preciousness-of-the-%e2%80%9csecular%e2%80%9d-jew/comment-page-1/#comment-3218</link>
		<dc:creator>Belle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 18:16:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=264#comment-3218</guid>
		<description>I disagree with Rabbi Cardozo&#039;s main thesis: that emphasizing how &quot;Jewish&quot; secular Jews really are is a more effective kiruv approach than showing them that they lack Torah. It is true that the Torah&#039;s ethical values have seeped into many corners of Jewish life: Jews are often charitable, honest, seeking to change the world for the better, etc.  However, most very secular Jews would NOT attribute their honesty, for example, to Judaism but to something amorphous called &quot;basic morality.&quot; They would say things like &quot;I am honest because it is the right thing to do, not because some Torah or rabbi tells me to.&quot; I believe they would find it somewhat offensive to be told that it is because they are Jewish that they are honest -- they&#039;ll answer back with examples of honest non-Jews, etc.

I also respectfully disagree that secular Jews often exceed the accomplishments of the frum Jew in the man-to-man mitzvos. It&#039;s a nice thesis, but the reality doesn&#039;t bear it out.  Has anyone ever heard of a gemach for anything in the Conservative, Reform or non-affiliated community? Has anyone but the frum created a Hatzola or Bikur Cholim? Jews do participate at soup kitchens and do spontaneous acts of chessed, but rarely does one find the extended and dedicated chessed that is tiring, demanding and sometimes painful outside of frum circles.

It is true that many, if not most, Jews have a good heart, and do care, but without a structure to harness their good impulses, they are wasted. The structure is the mitzvos.  When non-affiliated Jews see things like Tomchei Shabbos and the above mentioned chassadim they are very impressed and moved. It is precisely showing them that Torah is what they are missing that moves them. 

Rabbi Cardoza&#039;s point that frum Jews need to respect the non-frum is obvious to any BT. That many if not most FFBs are &quot;arrogant&quot; in thinking that they are superior is questionable. Some think this way, and they are the same one who call Blacks and other non-Jews with slurs. Many others have internalized ahavas yisroel and still others have an underlying envy for the frei Yid. Granted, he is correct in saying that being judgmental will turn away a non-frum yid, but actually it takes a degree of awareness not to judge someone who is doing blatent aveiras. It takes some level of education for people to understand deeply the ramifications of being a tinok she nishba, that non-frum Jews feel empty inside, etc.

This is where BT educating the FFB is very valuable, and I think the recent movie put out by Aish HaTorah, Inspired, was very successful in this way. I heard that it was an enormous success in the FFB world, which wouldn&#039;t be the case if the FFB community was arrogant. They simply don&#039;t relate and need to be educated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree with Rabbi Cardozo&#8217;s main thesis: that emphasizing how &#8220;Jewish&#8221; secular Jews really are is a more effective kiruv approach than showing them that they lack Torah. It is true that the Torah&#8217;s ethical values have seeped into many corners of Jewish life: Jews are often charitable, honest, seeking to change the world for the better, etc.  However, most very secular Jews would NOT attribute their honesty, for example, to Judaism but to something amorphous called &#8220;basic morality.&#8221; They would say things like &#8220;I am honest because it is the right thing to do, not because some Torah or rabbi tells me to.&#8221; I believe they would find it somewhat offensive to be told that it is because they are Jewish that they are honest &#8212; they&#8217;ll answer back with examples of honest non-Jews, etc.</p>
<p>I also respectfully disagree that secular Jews often exceed the accomplishments of the frum Jew in the man-to-man mitzvos. It&#8217;s a nice thesis, but the reality doesn&#8217;t bear it out.  Has anyone ever heard of a gemach for anything in the Conservative, Reform or non-affiliated community? Has anyone but the frum created a Hatzola or Bikur Cholim? Jews do participate at soup kitchens and do spontaneous acts of chessed, but rarely does one find the extended and dedicated chessed that is tiring, demanding and sometimes painful outside of frum circles.</p>
<p>It is true that many, if not most, Jews have a good heart, and do care, but without a structure to harness their good impulses, they are wasted. The structure is the mitzvos.  When non-affiliated Jews see things like Tomchei Shabbos and the above mentioned chassadim they are very impressed and moved. It is precisely showing them that Torah is what they are missing that moves them. </p>
<p>Rabbi Cardoza&#8217;s point that frum Jews need to respect the non-frum is obvious to any BT. That many if not most FFBs are &#8220;arrogant&#8221; in thinking that they are superior is questionable. Some think this way, and they are the same one who call Blacks and other non-Jews with slurs. Many others have internalized ahavas yisroel and still others have an underlying envy for the frei Yid. Granted, he is correct in saying that being judgmental will turn away a non-frum yid, but actually it takes a degree of awareness not to judge someone who is doing blatent aveiras. It takes some level of education for people to understand deeply the ramifications of being a tinok she nishba, that non-frum Jews feel empty inside, etc.</p>
<p>This is where BT educating the FFB is very valuable, and I think the recent movie put out by Aish HaTorah, Inspired, was very successful in this way. I heard that it was an enormous success in the FFB world, which wouldn&#8217;t be the case if the FFB community was arrogant. They simply don&#8217;t relate and need to be educated.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/04/05/the-permanent-preciousness-of-the-%e2%80%9csecular%e2%80%9d-jew/comment-page-1/#comment-3217</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 17:45:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=264#comment-3217</guid>
		<description>About this article and many others by many others:
Writers shouldn&#039;t feel that they have to turn their fresh insights into the Unified Field Theory.
Often, &quot;short and sweet&quot; gets the idea across better and avoids the pitfalls of over-generalization and over-reaching.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About this article and many others by many others:<br />
Writers shouldn&#8217;t feel that they have to turn their fresh insights into the Unified Field Theory.<br />
Often, &#8220;short and sweet&#8221; gets the idea across better and avoids the pitfalls of over-generalization and over-reaching.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Frankel</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/04/05/the-permanent-preciousness-of-the-%e2%80%9csecular%e2%80%9d-jew/comment-page-1/#comment-3216</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Frankel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 17:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=264#comment-3216</guid>
		<description>Shoshie

To your point of the tone of Rabbi Cordozo&#039;s article, it is clear that many found it offensive. I believe it was due in part to his upfront usage of the term arrogant, instead of something more sugar coated, like gaiva-dich. 

But I like Rabbi Cordozo&#039;s out-of-the-box thinking, so I chose to get past the tone and hear his message. Clearly your mileage did vary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shoshie</p>
<p>To your point of the tone of Rabbi Cordozo&#8217;s article, it is clear that many found it offensive. I believe it was due in part to his upfront usage of the term arrogant, instead of something more sugar coated, like gaiva-dich. </p>
<p>But I like Rabbi Cordozo&#8217;s out-of-the-box thinking, so I chose to get past the tone and hear his message. Clearly your mileage did vary.</p>
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		<title>By: Shoshie</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/04/05/the-permanent-preciousness-of-the-%e2%80%9csecular%e2%80%9d-jew/comment-page-1/#comment-3210</link>
		<dc:creator>Shoshie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 15:22:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=264#comment-3210</guid>
		<description>Mark,

At the risk of prolonging a conversation that&#039;s probably lasted too long already, I&#039;ll respond in brief to a few of your points. 

1. I never suggested that you close the site - all I did was point out a tendency on behalf of many commenters to hold the frum community to unreasonably exacting standards and how occassionaly their comments border on being slanderous. I don&#039;t know what you&#039;re rabbanim have advised on how to respond to those but I noticed that you never let a negative comment re: BeyondBT pass without a rejoinder and I though your Ahavas Yisrael would demand that you do the same when others are unfairly maligned.

2. I have no doubt many people are relieved to hear that yes, there are problems in the frum community, and somehow it helps them cope further. I&#039;d love to know how, but I trust that it&#039;s very therapuetic.

3. I&#039;m have never questioned the willingness of Kiruv pros to accept criticism. I questioned the wisdom of dishing it out when they&#039;re not guilty of the crime.

4. To say that Rabbi Cardozo&#039;s article wouldn&#039;t make it into &quot;How To Win Friends etc.&quot; is precisely the point. His article was on How To Win Jews and in trying to make his point he was guilty of the very crime he warns against. That was my point and it seems that even you agree.

5. As far as Kiruv pros reading the site, I know some who do so avidly and others who pointedly don&#039;t, because of the frequent negativity. 
For the record, I fowarded a copy of this article to four acqauintences of mine who are in the field of kiruv. Of the three who responded, two were overwhelmingly disturbed by the TONE of the argument and the third felt it might have been an important point but it was poorly presented.

Have a wonderful Shabbos!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,</p>
<p>At the risk of prolonging a conversation that&#8217;s probably lasted too long already, I&#8217;ll respond in brief to a few of your points. </p>
<p>1. I never suggested that you close the site &#8211; all I did was point out a tendency on behalf of many commenters to hold the frum community to unreasonably exacting standards and how occassionaly their comments border on being slanderous. I don&#8217;t know what you&#8217;re rabbanim have advised on how to respond to those but I noticed that you never let a negative comment re: BeyondBT pass without a rejoinder and I though your Ahavas Yisrael would demand that you do the same when others are unfairly maligned.</p>
<p>2. I have no doubt many people are relieved to hear that yes, there are problems in the frum community, and somehow it helps them cope further. I&#8217;d love to know how, but I trust that it&#8217;s very therapuetic.</p>
<p>3. I&#8217;m have never questioned the willingness of Kiruv pros to accept criticism. I questioned the wisdom of dishing it out when they&#8217;re not guilty of the crime.</p>
<p>4. To say that Rabbi Cardozo&#8217;s article wouldn&#8217;t make it into &#8220;How To Win Friends etc.&#8221; is precisely the point. His article was on How To Win Jews and in trying to make his point he was guilty of the very crime he warns against. That was my point and it seems that even you agree.</p>
<p>5. As far as Kiruv pros reading the site, I know some who do so avidly and others who pointedly don&#8217;t, because of the frequent negativity.<br />
For the record, I fowarded a copy of this article to four acqauintences of mine who are in the field of kiruv. Of the three who responded, two were overwhelmingly disturbed by the TONE of the argument and the third felt it might have been an important point but it was poorly presented.</p>
<p>Have a wonderful Shabbos!</p>
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		<title>By: YM</title>
		<link>http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/04/05/the-permanent-preciousness-of-the-%e2%80%9csecular%e2%80%9d-jew/comment-page-1/#comment-3191</link>
		<dc:creator>YM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 20:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=264#comment-3191</guid>
		<description>Yesterday, one of my wifes friends, who became frum at the same time my future wife did,  told her that she is no longer orthodox and has begun violating shabbes.  According to her friend, she is tired of her life revolving around shul and shabbes and wants to do normal things.  I said to my wife that this type of situation is more likely to occur when someone decides to become frum because they think it is going to enhance their life, make them happier, etc.  If you become frum because you believe that Hashem gave the Torah and that it is Hashem&#039;s will that we follow the halacha, and you also believe that the process of oral law and halacha from Moshe Rabbenu until today is valid and not broken, then this type of decision is much less likely to occur.  

My point?  Is kiruv about offering people life enhancement strategies and tasty meals and nice clothes, or is it about serving Hashem because we believe that our redemption is being delayed becuase of aveyrahs that non-observant (and observant) jews commit?  Is the choice between being observant or non-observant two equally valid choices, or is it more like a drug counseler and a drug addict, where no one would argue that the behavior of the drug addict is valid or acceptable?  Or is it somewhere in the middle? I really don&#039;t know what the proper attitude is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yesterday, one of my wifes friends, who became frum at the same time my future wife did,  told her that she is no longer orthodox and has begun violating shabbes.  According to her friend, she is tired of her life revolving around shul and shabbes and wants to do normal things.  I said to my wife that this type of situation is more likely to occur when someone decides to become frum because they think it is going to enhance their life, make them happier, etc.  If you become frum because you believe that Hashem gave the Torah and that it is Hashem&#8217;s will that we follow the halacha, and you also believe that the process of oral law and halacha from Moshe Rabbenu until today is valid and not broken, then this type of decision is much less likely to occur.  </p>
<p>My point?  Is kiruv about offering people life enhancement strategies and tasty meals and nice clothes, or is it about serving Hashem because we believe that our redemption is being delayed becuase of aveyrahs that non-observant (and observant) jews commit?  Is the choice between being observant or non-observant two equally valid choices, or is it more like a drug counseler and a drug addict, where no one would argue that the behavior of the drug addict is valid or acceptable?  Or is it somewhere in the middle? I really don&#8217;t know what the proper attitude is.</p>
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